Need some advice/legal advice

[Slow Triathlete]

Hi Everyone,

I need your help. Trust me, I am not asking for money but rather advice and/or legal counsel.

For those of you who know me I do not ask for help often unless it is something that I believe in or it pisses me off greatly. This is a little of both. It will be a bit long but please read to the end.

I have attached 3 pictures of our house and yard. My wife and I have lived here for 8 years and know most of our neighbors. We eat dinner at each other's houses, gather in driveways, mow each other's lawns when people are on vacation.......really Leave it to Beaver type stuff. And we love it.

As of recently I was a member of the HOA (2 years) here in the neighborhood and acted as the President for the last 1.5 years. I could no longer serve due to demands from work and they placed a new president in (even though she has not been officially nominated yet). Her and the new board's goal is to clean up the neighborhood. Great.....Awesome......I fully supported it.

So I was a little surprised that I myself got a letter from the board for these two statutes:

1. No obnoxious or offensive conditions shall be allowed to exist upon any lot, nor shall anything be done thereon which may become an annoyance or nuisance to the neighborhood.
2. All improved lots must be properly maintained. In the event any lot owner fails to keep the premises free from weeds, underbrush or refuse piles, unsightly growth or unsightly objects or tools, after notification, the Board of Directors may correct the situation at the lot owner’s expense.

Now if you look at the pictures then this is the usual state of our yard and we are often complimented on it from our neighbors. It won't win any awards but I take care of it and improve it every year.

Can you guess what the "obnoxious or offensive condition" is? It's in all 3 pictures.

It is our flags. Really. No I'm not kidding.

I wrote them back and applauded them for trying to clean up the neighborhood but let them know that I did not think that flying a flag for my country and one for my wife's was offensive, let alone obnoxious. I also let them know that as being the former president I knew that there were no rules about how to fly flags in our neighborhood.

They came back and said that they needed to be on flag poles. Well......I have round columns and I'm not going to poke holes in my siding for future resale issues. And again, that is not stated anywhere in the rules and regulations for our neighborhood.

So now I'm stuck. Mad about having to take down our flags because they are "offensive and obnoxious" and also mad as being the grandson of a flight mechanic in the Air Force for WW II, son of a 30 year Marine , and the brother of a Navy submariner. I would have joined if it wasn't for my lungs.
Does anyone have any advice on this or legal precedence that I can stand on? Or do I have to just suck it up, take them down, and reconsider living in a neighborhood with an HOA?

PS.....................they do not have any written complaints either. Only "verbal" complaints from our neighbors for over 8 years who love the flags. Interesting.

[Remo]

Sorry about the issue, I don't live in a HOA so no help there, but if it's not written in the by laws I would keep flying them, tell them to sue me, I don't see a case. Seems like it is very subjective and would not hold up in court, or I would erect a huge flag pole and find the biggest flags and fly them!

[markem]

I have no idea how the law works in NC, but having been on the HOA board here, I can relate some ideas that may be applicable.

Most reputable lawyers will give you about 1/2 hour pro bono to discuss your case. Contact the state bar association for recommendations. Also ask about services to help homeowners in your circumstances. The state may also have resources available.

In Oregon, the law pertaining to HOAs is part of ORS Chapter 94 (http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/chapter/94). Specifically, the laws mandates that no CC&Rs, by-laws, etc. for a subdivision or HOA may exceed that permitted in ORS.94 but may be more limiting. It may be worth finding out where the NC law is and what is says.

Your local police department may have a neighborhood dispute resolution service. However, if the HOA insists that they are in the right, the resolution service will do no good.

I have a somewhat funny frog story from when my HOA (when still run by the developer) sent me a threatening letter. I had to seek legal advice and pay to have a letter written to the HOA which caused them to go away for good. You may need to go this route. I paid $175 for my letter and it was worth it.

As for ignoring them, it is typical that an HOA has the ability to file a lien on any property within the subdivision. If they file one, they do not have to inform you (at least not here) and neither does the county (where, presumably the lien is filed). You may only discover this when trying to sell and have no time to fight it since it will hold up the sale. Also note that HOAs in most states can add some form of an interest penalty for outstanding fines. Many locales give you the ability to monitor your property record for liens.

and finally, I do believe that if you ask for the justification for their reasoning -- which part of the bylaws, CC&R, state law, etc. -- that supports their claim, then the ball is in their court until they justify their reasoning. Note that they do not have to get a legal opinion, just justify why they are taking the steps that that they are taking (i.e., a reasonable person would agree with them based solely on the justification they provide). If that is the case, then they should not be able to move forward with any fines or other actions until they satisfy your (reasonable) request.

Make sure that all correspondence occurs with registered mail in case a paper trail is necessary down the line.

[MarkinAZ]

Your property is just too well manicured Scott. No wonder you received that threatening letter from the new HOA board

So, I was looking through my HOA' rules n regulations, and ascertained the following:

II. ARCHITECTURAL RULES, 13. GENERAL ACHITECTURAL states: "Exterior decorations or forms of self-expression such as flags, wind chimes, small statues, planters, or various ornamental items are permitted so long as they 1) do not damage or interfere with fences or other common areas; 2) are maintained properly where necessary; and 3) do not violate federal, state, or local ordinances. The Association respects individuals rights to express their cultural, social, or political views, but urges residents to be considerate of their neighbors."

HOA' in California are very strong, and are backed by California law. HOA CCR and Rules and Regulations are cookie cutter policies, but are unique as each board comes and goes, and also depend how involved the membership is on a monthly basis during board meetings (so there are no "back door" type of meetings with new rules being passed underneath the table).

I agree with Mark (markem) in that you have received a letter from the new board indicating (in all its broadness) that your property is not in compliance.

You need to send them a letter certified and registered and ask them to be specific and advise you what exactly is not compliant, and to cite you page number, section number, paragraph number, and any sort of amendment that backs up their allegation.

Yes, the ball will then officially be in their court.

BTW, some folks in NC probably don't care for the Canadian flag flying in the US of A. Kind of like some folks here in California fly the Mexican flag on their front yard in some parts of Los Angeles Just sayin....

[joshnauburn]

Originally Posted by Remo

Sorry about the issue, I don't live in a HOA so no help there, but if it's not written in the by laws I would keep flying them, tell them to sue me, I don't see a case. Seems like it is very subjective and would not hold up in court, or I would erect a huge flag pole and find the biggest flags and fly them!

With the 'batman' light illuminating them at night

[Old Sailor]

Wait.......what......they DON'T like the Canadian Flag!!!! tell them don't make me come over there!

[The Poet]

If you are as close with your neighbors as you state, could you not get them to sign a petition to tell this biddy to shove it? You might want to rephrase that somewhat.

[Slow Triathlete]

Haha....thanks guys. I actually could put a petition together in the future. As for right now I don't think that they have a leg to stand on. A friend of mine who is a lawyer told me to take them to court if they try to fine me and that she would represent me if need be.

[The Poet]

I was born and raised in NC, so rightly wonder if they even KNOW it's a Canadian flag.

Scott -
I agree with markem - be careful with HOA's ability to levy liens. People have lost homes over anthill issues. The fact you have an attorney is superb. As mentioned, have your attorney write a stern letter and see what shakes loose.
If need be, put flag poles on the house - easy to fix or even leave when you sell. Don't give in, brother. The petition may be worthwhile, too. See what your attorney says. Stupid a$$holes with power complexes sure are irritating.
Good luck!

[ThePict]

Or you can follow their wishes and install a freestanding set of flagpoles like these: http://www.costco.com/Sunsetter-20&#...=10301&refine=

Nothing like following the rules by erecting two 20' poles for then to decide maybe your flags weren't all that bad after all.

[Blueface]

Not an uncommon HOA issue.
Not sure the one I would pick a fight over. If in bylaws, you will lose.
If not in bylaws then let the games begin with a response from an attorney to them pointing that out.
However, guess what will then happen to bylaws? They will be amended to fix that void.
If you really want to display your flags and avoid a piss match, likely costly for you twice over as you will pay your attorney as well as association's via your maintenance fees, I say get a pole for them that works for everyone.
Unfortunately, HO associations are both good and bad for one's health.

[mosesbotbol]

I'd tell the HOA the flags will remain until a judge says I need to remove them.