Planting My First Garden

[OHRD]

I've enjoyed reading some of the garden threads on here and it's been really helpful. We planted zucchini, carrots, squash, peas, lima beans, onions, and cantaloupe this year. We started with the little pods of potting soil - like 50 to a container.

This weekend we plan to do a raised bed in the yard and transplant some of this stuff.

Need some advice for the bed. What's the best thing to fill it with? I have some loose dirt in the yard - should I mix that w/ some potting soil? If I have to fill that whole bed with potting soil, it's going to get way more expensive than I care for.

And how far do I need to raise it off the ground? Do I need a "floor" on it other than the grass? Should I break up the grass to let the roots go into the ground?

[HK3-]

IMO, you really can't go wrong. Mix your soil with the potting soil. As for the height.... how's a foot tall sound? That's fun of doing this stuff... trial and error.

[wayner123]

What are you material are you using to make the raised bed?

The square foot garden book says that 6" of soil is all you need, however I think that 8"-12" is a bit better for a wider range of veggies.

Look around for different companies that may provide compost by the cubic yard. Craigslist, landscape compaines, etc will probably have it. Down here there are few different companies offering compost ranging from $10-$18 a cubic yard.

You can also lay down newspaper or cardboard for a floor to the bed.

[shilala]

99% of plants grow in the top 6" of soil. A four inch raised bed is more than ample for any gardening situation at all, and is really the best.
I'll even tell you why, because that's a pretty big statement.
What you're after with a raised bed is opportunity to control soil moisture. Plants DO NOT like "wet feet". In lots of areas, the soil itself or the lay of the land does not lend itself to water control.
A raised bed allows you to improve the soil AND control the wetness of your soil. That's what they were devised for, and that's where they're indicated.
I know lots of folks just like to build them because they're cute, but lots of times they're just making a bad situation worse. They'll build a box, use the same lousy soil that's all around, put the plants up in the air, and starve them for water all season long.

If you use a plain old 4x4's, fill that sucker up with a nice improved sandy loam full of compost, and water it as little as possible, you can grow the most gorgeous plants in the world.

In case you wondered about the "other 2 inches", here's the thing...
When you use the 4" timbers, most of your plants roots will never hit the grass that is under where you started. If it does, it'll grab extra nitrogen from that thin layer of sod. If it's too much, the roots will just pull back and stay up at the 4" level.
The best part of that is that the sod will start to rot. That'll bring the worms from miles away, they LOVE to eat that stuff. Then they'll come up and worm all around in your 4"'s of dirt and improve it dramatically.
Ultimately you'll improve the soil below your frame, and that will help drainage as well.

If you want to go one more mile, get yourself a bunch of SAP, the super absorbant polymer crystal stuff. Work that in your beds and NEVER till them. Don't even turn them over. It's a waste of time and just kills your worms and wrecks your SAP. The SAP will hold water for your plants all summer long, and you'll only need to water once in a blue moon.
If you want, when you put in your transplants, you can put a little handful of composted cow poop in each plant's hole. That gives them a little kick start, and will sustain them through the year. If it so pleases, don't be afraid to use miracle grow when you water. If you do, remember the rule "weakly weekly". That means to use it at about 1/4th the recommended amount once a week.

[OHRD]

I was thinking about doing it 8ft x 8ft, maybe using railroad ties if I can find them. Probably stack two all the way around.

I'll brink up the ground below it and try to get some dirty out of that but we have a ton of pines in the backyard and there are a lot of roots...

[OHRD]

I just came across 4 8ft railroad ties, so these'll be the base. They are about 6 inches deep, so I'll dig the ground where they go and drop them in an inch or two and get the ground level...then mix some of the yards dirt w/ potting soil...that work?

[jjirons69]

Matt, research the net. Lots of great ideas out there. Whatever you do - have fun!

[shilala]

Originally Posted by OHRD

I just came across 4 8ft railroad ties, so these'll be the base. They are about 6 inches deep, so I'll dig the ground where they go and drop them in an inch or two and get the ground level...then mix some of the yards dirt w/ potting soil...that work?

Matt, potting soil will work, but it's generally not a very good bang-for-your-buck soil improver. You can buy composted cow manure by the bag at garden centers and it's a lot cheaper. Tons better, too.
If you already have potting soil on hand, don't be afraid to use it, because it does improve the soil drainage-wise, it just doesn't do much plant-food-wise.
Just plain compost at the garden center is cheap, too, if they have it. It's excellent for both drainage and plant feeding, as well. Composted cow poop just has more good stuff and less junk in it. The regular compost tends to have lots of wood pieces and wood chips, and that ain't good for nothing.

[shilala]

Matt, I have one more suggestion...
If you keep your beds 4'x4' or 5'x5', you can reach all the way to the center while sitting on the edge of your bed. That makes it super comfortable to weed, plant, and whatever. You might want to do a little "mock-up" to see how far you can reach and what is comfortable. You could also make them 4'x8' or even longer, and achieve the same results.
An 8'x8' bed sucks ass because you plant them tight, then you can't get in there to harvest or weed, and you also end up walking in there, which is the very last thing you ever want to do. It compacts the soil and defeats all the work you just did.
Trust me, you'll be thrilled with them if you keep them skinny. Like I said, 4' or 5' wide. I kept all mine 4x4, 4x8 and 2x8 for flowers and bulbs. At one time I think we had like 26 of them and I had them all tubed up for irrigation. It was wicked cool.
(That was on top of five acres of orchards, two other 50'x100' gardens, and a 10x10 purple sunflower garden, among tons of other stuff. )

[OHRD]

Originally Posted by shilala

Matt, I have one more suggestion...
If you keep your beds 4'x4' or 5'x5', you can reach all the way to the center while sitting on the edge of your bed. That makes it super comfortable to weed, plant, and whatever. You might want to do a little "mock-up" to see how far you can reach and what is comfortable. You could also make them 4'x8' or even longer, and achieve the same results.
An 8'x8' bed sucks ass because you plant them tight, then you can't get in there to harvest or weed, and you also end up walking in there, which is the very last thing you ever want to do. It compacts the soil and defeats all the work you just did.
Trust me, you'll be thrilled with them if you keep them skinny. Like I said, 4' or 5' wide. I kept all mine 4x4, 4x8 and 2x8 for flowers and bulbs. At one time I think we had like 26 of them and I had them all tubed up for irrigation. It was wicked cool.
(That was on top of five acres of orchards, two other 50'x100' gardens, and a 10x10 purple sunflower garden, among tons of other stuff. )

YOU SO SMART SCOTT!!!!

Great call, cutting the two of the 8ft pieces in half, so it'll be 12ftx4ft...

And I'll go w/ the cow manure compost.

I've got to put up a chicken wire type fence as well to keep my big dog out of there....

[shilala]

Originally Posted by OHRD

YOU SO SMART SCOTT!!!!

Great call, cutting the two of the 8ft pieces in half, so it'll be 12ftx4ft...

And I'll go w/ the cow manure compost.

I've got to put up a chicken wire type fence as well to keep my big dog out of there....

Thanks Matt, but I could argue the smart thing real well.
Hey, don't be afraid to teach your dog to plant with you. My big old fat black lab worked with me year in and year out and learned where to step and where not to. He even knew he wasn't allowed in the garden when I wasn't in there.
Give him some credit, he's probably a lot smarter than me. Plus you'll enjoy having him with you. Plant some snow peas for him, and you'll have a treat for him all season. It makes it even easier to teach him to be good.
Remember that plants will take a pretty good beating, so don't be afraid.
Plus chicken wire looks like sh1t. lol

[wayner123]

I personally would refrain from using railroad ties. Because of the chemicals and oils they have. Sure people can make cases one way or the other on chemicals and their leeching. However, I cannot justify it in my own mind.


Here is a great article on root depth: http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglib...010137toc.html

Many plants have taproots and that will cause them to go deeper than 6". I am not sure how 6" became the standard, but it seems to work most of the time.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by wayner123

I personally would refrain from using railroad ties. Because of the chemicals and oils they have. Sure people can make cases one way or the other on chemicals and their leeching. However, I cannot justify it in my own mind.


Here is a great article on root depth: http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglib...010137toc.html

Many plants have taproots and that will cause them to go deeper than 6". I am not sure how 6" became the standard, but it seems to work most of the time.

Wayner, usually the ties that guys get are spent ones. They've been used on the railroad and really don't have any crap left that's a problem. I sure wouldn't use new ones. I suppose I should have qualified, I just immediately thought of the old ones guys can buy at home. Odd I didn't think of new ones because there's a tie plant right by my house that stinks like the bejeezus. I used to be afraid of pressure-treated lumber. I've long since ceased being afraid of it. I'm not sure if people still fuss about it being bad for you or not?

I should also qualify the 6" stuff. I'm talking about garden plants up north here. Actually, most of our stuff can't get past 4", and 6" is a stretch. In long growing seasons and loose soil with certain cultivars, I don't suppose there's any reason why roots can't get down there further, especially if they're chasing water. I suppose it'd be dictated by the plant's length of season, they might never get time to get down there before they're done. The 6" thing is because that's all the deeper plants find the need to push roots to get what they need (around here). They'll actually never go past two inches if they never find need to. That's evidenced by our tomato plants. They just send roots all over the top of the ground until they find wormholes to send roots down. Even at that, they'll only go about 3" max. You can pull a whole plant out effortlessly in loose soil. We plant them sideways in a trough rather than in a hole. It works LOTS better like that.

[OHRD]

So, how should I pack the dirt? Hard with a shovel or loose like I just flung it on there? I mean, it'll have to be packed around the actual root of the plant where I dig in at, but what about the rest?

[shilala]

Originally Posted by OHRD

So, how should I pack the dirt? Hard with a shovel or loose like I just flung it on there? I mean, it'll have to be packed around the actual root of the plant where I dig in at, but what about the rest?

You want it loose as a goose, brother. Loose so it'll drain and loose so it's got air. Just throw it in and rake the top. It'll settle to where it wants to be.
When you plant your plants, you don't "pack" them in, all you want to do is lightly tighten the soil around them, just enough for them to stand up.
If you can get the soil so loose that when you step in it you sink up to your knees, that'd be perfect. You can't do it, but that's what you're shooting for.

[wayner123]

Originally Posted by shilala

Wayner, usually the ties that guys get are spent ones. They've been used on the railroad and really don't have any crap left that's a problem. I sure wouldn't use new ones. I suppose I should have qualified, I just immediately thought of the old ones guys can buy at home. Odd I didn't think of new ones because there's a tie plant right by my house that stinks like the bejeezus. I used to be afraid of pressure-treated lumber. I've long since ceased being afraid of it. I'm not sure if people still fuss about it being bad for you or not?

I should also qualify the 6" stuff. I'm talking about garden plants up north here. Actually, most of our stuff can't get past 4", and 6" is a stretch. In long growing seasons and loose soil with certain cultivars, I don't suppose there's any reason why roots can't get down there further, especially if they're chasing water. I suppose it'd be dictated by the plant's length of season, they might never get time to get down there before they're done. The 6" thing is because that's all the deeper plants find the need to push roots to get what they need (around here). They'll actually never go past two inches if they never find need to. That's evidenced by our tomato plants. They just send roots all over the top of the ground until they find wormholes to send roots down. Even at that, they'll only go about 3" max. You can pull a whole plant out effortlessly in loose soil. We plant them sideways in a trough rather than in a hole. It works LOTS better like that.

Even with older ties, they have been found to leech chemicals. Where it might not be a big issue for flowers or other plants, I wouldn't trust it around my veggies.

There have been some good research articles on arsenic and PT lumber. Most of the scares came about through the old CCA treated lumber. There are a couple new ways of treating lumber now, and they are supposed to be safer, but still there is leeching. Whether or not that leeching can hurt you is another matter. Personally I am leaning more towards concrete block as it's cheaper and can be made into more patterns more easily for me.

Originally Posted by OHRD

So, how should I pack the dirt? Hard with a shovel or loose like I just flung it on there? I mean, it'll have to be packed around the actual root of the plant where I dig in at, but what about the rest?

Don't pack it at all. Just fill and smooth it down. The first few rains will pack it down enough.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by wayner123

Even with older ties, they have been found to leech chemicals. Where it might not be a big issue for flowers or other plants, I wouldn't trust it around my veggies.

There have been some good research articles on arsenic and PT lumber. Most of the scares came about through the old CCA treated lumber. There are a couple new ways of treating lumber now, and they are supposed to be safer, but still there is leeching. Whether or not that leeching can hurt you is another matter. Personally I am leaning more towards concrete block as it's cheaper and can be made into more patterns more easily for me.

I've never used ties, but I have to admit I'm not scared of them anymore, either. Maybe it's from all of them I saw used around home, I don't know. I just have never had issue. I wouldn't use them now, but mainly because I can't move them around and I don't find them aesthetically pleasing.
I was using those "pressure treated landscape timbers" you see at lowe's and walmart. They only last a few years, they're really worthless. When I build my next beds, it'll be grade#1 4x4's.
Block would be cool, but you can't have anything around here unless you put in a footer. The ground would freeze the first year and expand and wreck anything you laid in. To use blocks, you'd have to use those fancy, expensive "block system" blocks, and that'd get crazy expensive.

I suppose it'd only be right to suggest to Matt to look into ties a little further and see what folks around him are using? If their livers are failing and their life spans are around 55 years, it might pay to lay plastic in behind them?

[thebayratt]

Originally Posted by shilala

I was using those "pressure treated landscape timbers" you see at lowe's and walmart. They only last a few years, they're really worthless.

Thats what I used to get started out to make sure I really wanted a garden.
The reason they are worthless is that they are whats called "flash treated". They aren't fully treated all the way through. Thats why this year I went with a treaded 2x8" for a new raised bed. I could have used a 2x6, but a 2x8 gave me a little more room to add any more soil if needed.

Once they(timbers) rot away from the current bed, I will use some treated 2x6 or 2x8. Then I will use and oil based stain to seal them even more. I will do this all in the fall once all the plants are gone n dead.
Treated lumber is not to be in direct contact with the ground, thats why I am going to stain them to protect them even more.

I wouldn't use the ties, there are too many chemicals I wouldn't want in my plants. Creosote to name a few is distilled from crude coke oven tar, and is mainly composed of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons... don't sound to nice to be in the soil of my plants.

[thebayratt]

I made one of my raised beds with a 2x8s. Put a mixture of potting soil, cow manure, peat humus, and some ash from my burn barrel. I don't use any of that "fancy" soil (Ie: miracle grow, jungle dirt, etc....) its all cost and wood bark. I mixed them together and put in a real light sprinkle of 8-8-8 or plant/vegetable fertilizer. Mixed them togther and watered it thuroughly. I did all this a few weeks before I planted to I didn't burn the plants with the fertilizer.
I did break up the grass and tilled it in and pulled alot of it out and put it in the burn barrel to burn off then use the ashes in the garden.

[Chainsaw13]

All this talk about gardens has me itching to get mine started. Sucks they're calling for snow later this week. Once the weather does get a bit warmer though I have some plans to expand. Well actually, move some of my raised beds. Need that space for my snowmobile trailer.

Scott, what did you use for the irrigation setup when you had all those beds? I"ve been trying to use the drip irrigation, but my rain barrel does'nt have enough pressure to be effective. I"m thinking of getting a sump pump tied into a timer and see if that can bring up the PSI plus make sure everything gets watered when I"m out of town.