Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?

[jjirons69]

It's in discussion, but it seems the NCAA is waiting to see what punishment Penn State gives itself. The NCAA is not big on the death penalty because it can be quite a crippler, but the Sandusky coverup may make them move on it. If Penn State ends up punishing itself pretty extensively, the NCAA may say it's punishment enough. Looks like they're waiting on each other.

I say they meant to cover up what they could in an effort not to hurt the program, thus losing millions and millions in revenue and highly-praised recruits. They would not have overlooked the same actions by a chem lab teaching assistant. He'd been out on his azz.

[jonumberone]

I'm not in favor of any punishment for Penn State!
While it was a heinous crime, and the cover-up is reprehensible, those involved are no longer involved with the program.
Punishing Penn State football will only hurt the students and slow the rebuilding of a program, that is desperate to heal.

[CigarNut]

Originally Posted by jonumberone

I'm not in favor of any punishment for Penn State!
While it was a heinous crime, and the cover-up is reprehensible, those involved are no longer involved with the program.
Punishing Penn State football will only hurt the students and slow the rebuilding of a program, that is desperate to heal.

This is a civil matter, not an NCAA matter and the civil authorities are pursuing and prosecuting as they should. The NCAA should stick to sports. Just my

[smitty81]

Originally Posted by jonumberone

I'm not in favor of any punishment for Penn State!
While it was a heinous crime, and the cover-up is reprehensible, those involved are no longer involved with the program.
Punishing Penn State football will only hurt the students and slow the rebuilding of a program, that is desperate to heal.

Originally Posted by CigarNut

This is a civil matter, not an NCAA matter and the civil authorities are pursuing and prosecuting as they should. The NCAA should stick to sports. Just my

The coaches and players represent the team and university with their actions. They are always in the spotlight.

What your saying is like saying if a football player got caught selling drugs, let the court handle it, there should be no punishment from the NCAA.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

When you are a player or coach, you agree to abide by the rules and set a good example. When you mess up, your going to have to pay for the consequences.

If this happened with professors at Penn state, there would be no NCAA punishment as they are not affiliated with sports obviously.

The NCAA is the government of the athletic student body and coaching staff. If someone messes up, it's their job to take correct actions if necessary.


This sort of thing happens all the time with players. They get a DUI or in a fight or drugs charges. They obviously have court but often, if the coaches don't deal with it like they should, the NCAA will step in with a proper punishment.

I would be curious to see if the players have to sign any sort of contract once they star playing any NCAA sports basically saying that they accept the NCAA as their governing system and they agree to this and that................yadda yadda yadda.

[jonumberone]

Originally Posted by smitty81

The coaches and players represent the team and university with their actions. They are always in the spotlight.

What your saying is like saying if a football player got caught selling drugs, let the court handle it, there should be no punishment from the NCAA.

If a player get's caught selling drugs, the Player is punished

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

When you are a player or coach, you agree to abide by the rules and set a good example. When you mess up, your going to have to pay for the consequences.

I am all for punishing the men involved in this!

If this happened with professors at Penn state, there would be no NCAA punishment as they are not affiliated with sports obviously.

The NCAA is the government of the athletic student body and coaching staff. If someone messes up, it's their job to take correct actions if necessary.

The Penn State Trustee's have taken action by removing everyone involved


This sort of thing happens all the time with players. They get a DUI or in a fight or drugs charges. They obviously have court but often, if the coaches don't deal with it like they should, the NCAA will step in with a proper punishment.

I would be curious to see if the players have to sign any sort of contract once they star playing any NCAA sports basically saying that they accept the NCAA as their governing system and they agree to this and that................yadda yadda yadda.

My response in red

[smitty81]

Originally Posted by jonumberone

My response in red

I think we are probably on the same page......

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by smitty81

The NCAA is the government of the athletic student body and coaching staff. If someone messes up, it's their job to take correct actions if necessary.

No, they're a non-profit charter organization that exists to regulate intercollegiate competition.

[jcruse64]

Originally Posted by jonumberone

I'm not in favor of any punishment for Penn State!
While it was a heinous crime, and the cover-up is reprehensible, those involved are no longer involved with the program.
Punishing Penn State football will only hurt the students and slow the rebuilding of a program, that is desperate to heal.

I've heard that argument a LOT in the last week or so, and am pretty tired of it. I heard one guy on Sirius radio use this reasoning, saying that it's not right to further hurt the school, hurt the students who love the school, hurt the fans who love the school and program and would have to miss out on games lost, hurt the people who make a living from the program in some way (think vendors who sell at games, etc). Yeah, that would hurt them SO much more than Sandusky was allowed to hurt those poor kids Give me a break!!!

Using that line of reasoning, almost NO programs should ever receive NCAA punishment then. I'm a UK Wildcat B'Ball fan from way back. When Eddie Sutton's program got in big trouble in the late '80's, the program lost big time. Eddie and his son Sean (who was the one who was supposedly taking tests for Erik Manuel), in the meantime got to move on to OK State to continue coaching/playing with no such punishment. I believe Manuel finished college at a NAIA school, while UK lost scholarships and tournament opportunities. This punished the athletes, fans, students, and all those connected with the UK program that made money from it (vendors, etc). And it SHOULD have been punished. The program was doing wrong, got caught, and had to be punished. Those who ran the program, coach included, were part of a culture that felt it was above it all. Harsh punishment was needed, as much as I hated to feel the repercussions as a fan.

The issue at Penn State may not have been one where improper activity was knowingly conducted by those in the program and/or running the program to directly and improperly help student athletes/staff personally or give the program a competitive advantage. But the way those at the top (including Paterno) handled things with Sandusky allowed him continued access to all things Penn State Football, which he used to continue his evil, and the covering up of his activities by the CULTURE of Penn State leadership (if the Freeh report is correct) kept the Penn State Way untarnished to the public view, which kept the recruits coming in, along with student, alumni, and corporate support. This IS a program issue on this side of it, and would be one area where the NCAA should be looking to level sanctions to the football program because of the way Sandusky was handled by Penn State. Because Penn State leadership covered this issue up, they received improper benefits in recruiting and support of the program. Think that's a weak argument? I'd say they had much more benefit from covering this up (while it stayed covered up) than those OSU kids got from trading for tattoos. Did the NCAA let THAT coverup go unpunished???

I realize that the student athletes were nowhere involved in this, and it sucks for them. But this became all about the program leadership doing anything they could to cover the evil up to protect The Penn State Way. There was more concern shown for Sandusky than for any of his victims. The program has to be punished for this, whether those responsible are still there or not. The culture HAS to change, especially in light of what that culture did in the face of such horrible evil. Given what I'm still hearing and reading since the Freeh report broke, the culture is still fully in place.

[King James]

Originally Posted by jcruse64

I've heard that argument a LOT in the last week or so, and am pretty tired of it. I heard one guy on Sirius radio use this reasoning, saying that it's not right to further hurt the school, hurt the students who love the school, hurt the fans who love the school and program and would have to miss out on games lost, hurt the people who make a living from the program in some way (think vendors who sell at games, etc). Yeah, that would hurt them SO much more than Sandusky was allowed to hurt those poor kids Give me a break!!!

Using that line of reasoning, almost NO programs should ever receive NCAA punishment then. I'm a UK Wildcat B'Ball fan from way back. When Eddie Sutton's program got in big trouble in the late '80's, the program lost big time. Eddie and his son Sean (who was the one who was supposedly taking tests for Erik Manuel), in the meantime got to move on to OK State to continue coaching/playing with no such punishment. I believe Manuel finished college at a NAIA school, while UK lost scholarships and tournament opportunities. This punished the athletes, fans, students, and all those connected with the UK program that made money from it (vendors, etc). And it SHOULD have been punished. The program was doing wrong, got caught, and had to be punished. Those who ran the program, coach included, were part of a culture that felt it was above it all. Harsh punishment was needed, as much as I hated to feel the repercussions as a fan.

The issue at Penn State may not have been one where improper activity was knowingly conducted by those in the program and/or running the program to directly and improperly help student athletes/staff personally or give the program a competitive advantage. But the way those at the top (including Paterno) handled things with Sandusky allowed him continued access to all things Penn State Football, which he used to continue his evil, and the covering up of his activities by the CULTURE of Penn State leadership (if the Freeh report is correct) kept the Penn State Way untarnished to the public view, which kept the recruits coming in, along with student, alumni, and corporate support. This IS a program issue on this side of it, and would be one area where the NCAA should be looking to level sanctions to the football program because of the way Sandusky was handled by Penn State. Because Penn State leadership covered this issue up, they received improper benefits in recruiting and support of the program. Think that's a weak argument? I'd say they had much more benefit from covering this up (while it stayed covered up) than those OSU kids got from trading for tattoos. Did the NCAA let THAT coverup go unpunished???

I realize that the student athletes were nowhere involved in this, and it sucks for them. But this became all about the program leadership doing anything they could to cover the evil up to protect The Penn State Way. There was more concern shown for Sandusky than for any of his victims. The program has to be punished for this, whether those responsible are still there or not. The culture HAS to change, especially in light of what that culture did in the face of such horrible evil. Given what I'm still hearing and reading since the Freeh report broke, the culture is still fully in place.

You, and others in this thread, have perfectly valid points that make a lot of sense. We will just have to agree to disagree. While I agree Penn State should face great penalties, I still don't think the NCAA is the proper enforcer in this case.

[jcruse64]

For criminal acts perpetrated, no, NCAA has ZERO jurisdiction, and thus, no teeth to bare. But WRT the program's leadership covering up to save the face of the Penn State Way and protect the football program and Paterno's rep at all cost, yeah, the NCAA should be involved; that IS within its jurisdiction, IMO.

Give you another scenario: gambling is illegal in many states. If a program in a non-gambling state is caught up in a point-shaving scheme, or some other gambling scheme, and students and staff are involved, there are going to be legal repercussions involved. But given the consequences from the athletics and competition standpoint, would not the NCAA also have to get involved here as well and level punishment???

You're probably right; we will agree to disagree on this one, and I respect your right to your viewpoint, as well as any others on here. I will say this; even though I love the UK Cats, it will not surprise me if something gets flagged in Coach Cal's tenure that will bring down the pain on the B'Ball program. If they get caught and the facts show they cheated in some way, even if it means vacating wins and a title, as much as I dislike the NCAA powers-that-be, I would stand behind sanctions we get hit with. But I don't want to hear ONE WORD about UK getting what it deserves from ANYONE who stands against Penn State NCAA penalties on this issue. Just my ; your mileage may vary.

[The Poet]

I am not one of those people who have a problem with the "abuse of power" critics of the NCAA are fond of citing, though I do confess I found their recent slamming of CalTech's athletic programs to be ludicrous. And there is no doubt the heinous abuses Sandusky performed far outweigh any the NCAA could perform, nor do I argue the point Jamie makes regarding a possible cover-up attempt in State College. That being said, I do question if this issue lays outside the purview of the NCAA. Shoot, they don't even have a policy regarding criminal activities by athletes such as drug use or DWIs, so how can they take a stand on this?

I'm not saying they shouldn't, and I would have no complaint if they did impose a death penalty . . . still, I wonder at their authority to do so.

[E.J.]

I don't have a strong opinion either way, though for those saying "no" related to the NCAA overstepping their bounds, what about "lack of institutional control"? To me, this seems to fit that bill perfectly.....

IMO, this is not just a civil matter, it is something that needs to be looked at by the NCAA We are talking about those in power at an institution covering up the worst of crimes, for years and years of ongoing abuse, to keep their clean reputation money making machine running.

For the record, I'd rather see the NCAA allow athletes get new cars and envelopes of cash as opposed to letting coaches, and friends of the program, rape kids and have it covered up as to not tarnish the illusion created....

[Subvet642]

Originally Posted by E.J.

I don't have a strong opinion either way, though for those saying "no" related to the NCAA overstepping their bounds, what about "lack of institutional control"? To me, this seems to fit that bill perfectly.....

IMO, this is not just a civil matter, it is something that needs to be looked at by the NCAA We are talking about those in power at an institution covering up the worst of crimes, for years and years of ongoing abuse, to keep their clean reputation money making machine running.

For the record, I'd rather see the NCAA allow athletes get new cars and envelopes of cash as opposed to letting coaches, and friends of the program, rape kids and have it covered up as to not tarnish the illusion created....

I'm with you, but I'd go a step further; kill the whole damned school, revoke their charter, pull all their grants. That place was Hell for, what, 14 years? How many children were tortured there? Screw the damned school! The institution, by it's acquiescence, permitted it to happen and therefore the whole institution should be held accountable. The survival of Penn State isn't worth one second of the pain, horror and misery those children went through, and to suggest that it's unfair to the professors, staff and students to close it down, I think that would be akin keeping the Nazi death camps open because the guards need the jobs.

Originally Posted by Subvet642

I'm with you, but I'd go a step further; kill the whole damned school, revoke their charter, pull all their grants. That place was Hell for, what, 14 years? How many children were tortured there? Screw the damned school! The institution, by it's acquiescence, permitted it to happen and therefore the whole institution should be held accountable. The survival of Penn State isn't worth one second of the pain, horror and misery those children went through, and to suggest that it's unfair to the professors, staff and students to close it down, I think that would be akin keeping the Nazi death camps open because the guards need the jobs.

I'm in favor of litigating the hell out Penn State and their employees. Should the ncaa not be held liable as well? I don't follow college sports or know really how the ncaa is structured as a governing body.. maybe someone can tell me why the ncaa is clear from all liability?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Subvet642

I'm with you, but I'd go a step further; kill the whole damned school, revoke their charter, pull all their grants. That place was Hell for, what, 14 years? How many children were tortured there? Screw the damned school! The institution, by it's acquiescence, permitted it to happen and therefore the whole institution should be held accountable. The survival of Penn State isn't worth one second of the pain, horror and misery those children went through, and to suggest that it's unfair to the professors, staff and students to close it down, I think that would be akin keeping the Nazi death camps open because the guards need the jobs.

And Godwin's Law rules the day...

[Subvet642]

Originally Posted by Stephen

And Godwin's Law rules the day...

I, generally, try to avoid such comparisons, but I couldn't think of one that better conveys the terror and despair those children must have felt, as well as the institutional hubris on PSU's part. I work at pediatric hospital in Boston (I'm sure you know which one), and I've seen the aftermath of child abuse and rape. It's ugly; as ugly as anything you could imagine. Did I invoke Godwin's Law? Yes, I did, but I did so with good cause.

[King James]

Originally Posted by Subvet642

I, generally, try to avoid such comparisons, but I couldn't think of one that better conveys the terror and despair those children must have felt, as well as the institutional hubris on PSU's part. I work at pediatric hospital in Boston (I'm sure you know which one), and I've seen the aftermath of child abuse and rape. It's ugly; as ugly as anything you could imagine. Did I invoke Godwin's Law? Yes, I did, but I did so with good cause.

I don't think there is any disagreement to how disgusting, wrong, and inexcusable the acts of Sandusky and cover-up by Penn State are. The only dispute is to where justice should be served, in the courts or by sanctions from the NCAA. I would hate for anyone to view my disagreement with the death penalty as indicating at all some kind of defense of Penn State in this situation

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Subvet642

I, generally, try to avoid such comparisons, but I couldn't think of one that better conveys the terror and despair those children must have felt, as well as the institutional hubris on PSU's part. I work at pediatric hospital in Boston (I'm sure you know which one), and I've seen the aftermath of child abuse and rape. It's ugly; as ugly as anything you could imagine. Did I invoke Godwin's Law? Yes, I did, but I did so with good cause.

I had a response typed out, but my computer ate it.

The abridged version: I apologize if I come across as contrarian, and that even though my opinion is that the NCAA doesn't/shouldn't have jurisdiction, it also doesn't mean that I in no way am defending what transpired at Penn State.

Further, I could never do what you do because I'm a big softie that can't stand to see children in pain.

[E.J.]

Oh and just to be clear, I think Penn State does need to feel this with some sort of sanctions. I don't have a strong opinion as far as them getting the Death Penalty, but yes....as an institution, they lost control and that needs to be addressed. It is unfortunate that when this stuff happens(sanctions), it usually hurts those that had no involvement....but that is the way the ball bounces with this stuff....

[Stephen]

The NCAA needs to get involved with this about as much as Congress needed to hold hearings on steroids in MLB...