Noticable Curiosity

[RevSmoke]

I have been a cigar smoker since 1980 and have seen quite a bit of things go on in the cigar world. I am probably not the one to ask names of individuals involved with each cigar company, for I just don't commit such things to memory (I don't know the names of most actors, actresses, or musicians in bands either).

I do love to watch people and their behaviors and attitudes.

Here's where I'm going with this.

In the boom of the '90s I watched a bunch of brands appear on the market, some of them went over like a lead brick and quickly faded. Others came on the scene and have been around ever since.

What is interesting is that in those boom years, there were all sorts of new cigars that showed up on the scene, they were a bit pricier, they sold like hotcakes, everybody bragged about how good they were - and - some stuck around, some didn't. Some were around for 2 years, some for 3, some even made a 5 year stay before they all faded. A couple are still around.

Something else I noticed, is that some of the old venerable brands (Punch, HdM, ERdM, AF's regular line, etc...) seemed to lose popularity. . I don't know that they really did though, as they outsold most of the newer brand. However, they were relegated to the class of second rate cigars by many of the new smokers (I classify them as the guys who have been smoking 5 years or less) who were the most vocal about what they liked and what they diss-ed - publically. Not only have many of the brands disappeared, but many of the new smokers who appeared in the '90s no longer are smoking cigars.

In regards to cigars, have noticed a similar trend today. There are all sorts of new cigars showing up, many of them are a bit pricier, they sell like hotcakes, everybody (at least those who are vocal) brags about how good they are... Will they stick around or not? Some of the newer names have already been around a few years, will that remain the case?

Yes, I will agree that we have a more "educated" cigar smoker today. However, does more educated about cigars make one have a more developed palate? I notice a trend in today's most popular cigars, and it appears that strength plays a big part of the most popular sticks. (By the way, when I talk about most popular, I am speaking of those cigars that seem to get the most press here at CA and on other forums, but that may not mean the most popular in terms of actual sales - I haven't studied it yet, but I'd guess the same old venerable brands still outsell the cigars that get the most bandwidth here at CA.) In regard to palate, could it be that the stronger cigars appeal more because palates are not as refined to the subtleties and nuances of flavors?

I am not trying to speak less of anybody - or their cigar choices - I am simply speaking of what I have observed as a curiosity and am asking questions. Actually, I am wondering if there is a new trend? If there is, will it continue? As the newer cigars rise, will the older brands fade - especially as the older smokers begin to...

Will the rise in smoking bans, which are curtailing cigar smoking everywhere, show a decline in cigar sales?

Another thing I am curious about it this. The newere brands seem to do many more special releases. These releases have much higher prices. Some of the older brands don't do much in that regard. Are these special releases one of the few ways that the newer brands can bolster their sales? What I mean is, does the number of cigars they sell after the shine has worn off drop significantly enough that they need to get their name back out there in an effort to pump up sales of their regular lines? In the meanwhile, those old lines just keep plugging along, not needed to constantly put there name out there and they still sell significant numbers of cigars?

Or, could it be that some of the older names are part of a larger company, selling many different brands, and so their massive output, across a broard spectrum, covers their shortfalls in other areas?

A fact is this, there is only so much "good - excellent" cigar tobacco out there. Are the smaller brands buying up the best, or...?

(One of the things that happened in the '90s boom is that the larger companies had contracts with grower and continued to get the best tobacco. Some of the boutique cigars were buying inferior tobacco at inflated prices and selling cigars on hype that many bought - there was some prestie in the price.)

As I sit back and smoke my cigars and try to figure out what to try and what not to try, the new things out there get a bit dizzying. I don't have the expendable income to try everything new that comes out - nor do I want to. I do sit back though, wondering what will be here after another 15 years and what won't be.

So, are we in the midst of another boom?
How many of the present cigars smokers, especially those who began this hobby in the last 3 years, will be smoking in 20 years?

Each of us has a different palate, this is most definitely true. Some of us have different tastes for different times of the day and/or situations. In fact, one individual's tastes may run from incredibly mild to knock-your-socks-off strong.

I enjoy some of the new brands as well as many of the older brands.

I'm not looking for a "your favorites list" here. I am curious though if my observations are shared with anybody else or if I'm off my rocker?

Peace of the Lord be with you.

[big a]

Very interesting observation. In my very little experience I feel I can already see some of the things you are talking about.

I have been smoking around 4 years now and I fully believe I will be smoking in for another 40+(health permitted). Around a year or so ago I really changed the way I buy and smoke cigars just for this reason. If I try to keep up with all the “New” cigars that come out I would have to sell my house to try and get them all. I agree that it seems there are lot of new brands and blends coming into the market very often.

I was just thinking back to when I started smoking and Opus was the hottest stick on the market. I recall PMing someone that had a huge stash of them asking if he would be willing to sell 1 or a couple as I wanted to try one. He was trying to trade opus for opus so I thought he might like to let one go. The reply I got was nothing but rude and that I was committing a crime. Now there are 2-3 local B&Ms I can walk into and have my choice to a large selection and they pop up quite often in the WTS section.

Cigars seem to have its trends just like everything else. I can’t wait to watch them come and go over the many years of smoking I have ahead of me.

[LostAbbott]

Rev great thoughts... I cannot tell you weather or not I will be smoking in 20 years or not. Being as how I only started out a little more than a year ago. I do see this LE hype as a little absurd, and it seems strange that there is such a small amount of this "quality tobacco" that limits the production of these sticks. I can understand maybe a few every year, but I doubt that there is actually that much in the way of tobacco limitations.

As for stronger smokes, I do think that might be something limiting ones palate, but I also think it could help develop it quicker, as you get more use to the flavors, and search out different ones through the strength.

Great post thanks for your thoughts!

[Emjaysmash]

I'm goign to agree with you Todd. When I got into cigars, it was suggest to START with the venerable old brands, but once you got yourself going on those, there was a point where you move on to the hottest, most spoken about cigars.

I can't remember when I last smoked one of the regular "old" brands. And to be honest I never seem to think about it except when you post!

Do I see some of the new guys lasting for 20 years? I don't know. I don't think even a country wide ban on smoking would stop me, but it will eventually hurt those smokers who haven't started yet.

[wayner123]

One thing that I think is a major player is communication. Different ways of communication and the internet have determined how cigars are produced and promoted now.

[area51]

I believe it's a trend as well. A bandwagon or bragging rights. But hey, everyone is entitled to smoke what they want. As for me i'll stay away from Limited editions.

[Ashcan Bill]

Thinking back to the boom of the nineties, I remember smoking Fuentes, Padrons, ERDM (NCs), HdM (NCs), some vile things that Nestor Plascencia put out, and some Cohibas that I had a line on from Spain. Those are the only brands I can still recall. Whatever else I smoked at that time has faded from memory. Probably faded from the market as well.

Personally I don't think we're in another boom. Back then, smoking a cigar became something of a fashion statement. People that really didn't even like cigars had them hanging from their lips. I don't see that today.

While most of the boom cigars are gone, I would imagine the people that produced them are still around. They're most likely still producing boutique cigars today for anyone with the capital to come up with something. I suspect in another twenty years, they or their kids will still be producing cigars as well. While some brands stay and others come and go, I think the guys that grow tobacco and produce cigars tend to stay fairly constant.

As far as the 'special' stuff, I think the limited editions are more marketing than anything else and will always be around. People will always chase things in short supply. It's part of our nature. We just can't help it.

While my crystal ball is kinda cloudy, I think the game changer in the future might be if Cuba opens up, and their cigar people start up new brands, form ventures with other cigar manufacturers, and/or Cuba starts exporting raw tobacco. That could shake things up in the cigar world.

[Cornrow_Wallis]

Originally Posted by Ashcan Bill

As far as the 'special' stuff, I think the limited editions are more marketing than anything else and will always be around. People will always chase things in short supply. It's part of our nature. We just can't help it.

x2. People are scared to miss out on the next great thing. I feel like that sometimes.

[kaisersozei]

My experience kind of parallels yours, Todd--I first started smoking cigars in the late '80s, and notice a lot of those same boom-type patterns today. Wayne makes a good point about the speed of communication. I think that pushes everything a lot faster. I'll still smoke some of those "older" 90s brands--HdM and Punch. Their products have stayed consistent, maybe not as adventurous as some of the newer lines, but I know what I'm getting.

I see similar trends in craft brewing. Lots of small breweries popping up, trying to capitalize on the current trend toward more flavorful beers, "quality" beers. Some of them will last, some of them just seem to be pushing the extreme brewing envelope. Some of them will probably get bought up, products and tastes will change, etc. It's also putting a strain on product supply--this is the second year in the past 5 or so where there's a worldwide hops shortage. Limiting for business overall, frustrating to small (home)brewers like myself. That's probably the same kind of thing that leads to the LE cigar production as well. Make hay while the sun shines. Or, in this case, cigars.

Very thought provoking contribution, thanks. On a humorous note, my mind used an Andy Rooney voice to read your post. It was funny in my mind

[RevSmoke]

Originally Posted by kaisersozei

On a humorous note, my mind used an Andy Rooney voice to read your post. It was funny in my mind

That is funny!

[RevSmoke]

One of the things about this that strikes me most, is the line I put in, "In regard to palate, could it be that the stronger cigars appeal more because palates are not as refined to the subtleties and nuances of flavors?"

I've thought about that some more. Stronger flavors (not just cigars) can hide a multitude of deficiencies in a food/drink/smoke product as the bolder flavors cover things up a bit better. I have often wondered about stronger cigars and if this isn't part of the issue it putting out a fuller-bodied product.

I know some people like to snork/retrohale cigars to get some other flavors. Some cigars you can do that with, and some will tear the lining out of your nose. Could this be a way to judge the quality of the constituent tobaccos?

Is there a correlation to this thought? Or am I over-thinking?

[Ranger_B]

Interesting points by all. I think the communications and the openness of the boutique cigar makers are a lot more inviting to the newer cigar smoker than the older Altadis, General brands. Granted it is all business and marketing but I still think some personalities of the newer brands appear to me to be involved and supportive of the cigar culture compared to the large corporation brands. As far as tobacco goes I think countries and varieties of tobacco are a lot more diverse than with the boom of the 90s. Some of the trends we are seeing today I think and in some cases hope will disappear sooner or later( short fat cigars and cigars as thick as redwoods). Well maybe that is harsh I would imagine that people who like those vitolas would be angry if they where to go. I just hope that some of the manufactures continue to make the more traditional sizes as well as the larger RG stuff. I differ from some in that I like the LE for the simple fact that the brand is admitting that they only have enough tobacco for X number of cigars and then thats it for the blend no matter what the cause. When I grab a smoke I have had before I want it to taste like i remember not be something different. Granted for some it is more marketing but for others I believe that that go into a blend knowing that they cant recreate it and instead of continuing the name with a different blend they say this is limited. If this is a second boom at least it is a boom with some great smokes for the most part.

[RevSmoke]

Originally Posted by Ranger_B

Interesting points by all. I think the communications and the openness of the boutique cigar makers are a lot more inviting to the newer cigar smoker than the older Altadis, General brands. Granted it is all business and marketing but I still think some personalities of the newer brands appear to me to be involved and supportive of the cigar culture compared to the large corporation brands. As far as tobacco goes I think countries and varieties of tobacco are a lot more diverse than with the boom of the 90s. Some of the trends we are seeing today I think and in some cases hope will disappear sooner or later( short fat cigars and cigars as thick as redwoods). Well maybe that is harsh I would imagine that people who like those vitolas would be angry if they where to go. I just hope that some of the manufactures continue to make the more traditional sizes as well as the larger RG stuff. I differ from some in that I like the LE for the simple fact that the brand is admitting that they only have enough tobacco for X number of cigars and then thats it for the blend no matter what the cause. When I grab a smoke I have had before I want it to taste like i remember not be something different. Granted for some it is more marketing but for others I believe that that go into a blend knowing that they cant recreate it and instead of continuing the name with a different blend they say this is limited. If this is a second boom at least it is a boom with some great smokes for the most part.

I do like your thought on it being marketing.

I must say that I enjoy some of the larger ring guage cigars more than their smaller RG brothers. For example, the bigger the RG in the Coronado line, the more I like it. Of course, the opposite it true of some other cigar lines - for example the Tat browns, I like the Noella best of them, and the larger RGs seem lackluster to me.

Again, it is all about different tastes.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

[BlindedByScience]

I think some of this feeds on the natural tendencies of the new smoker. Myself, I know that when I got started with quality cigars (five or six years ago), I chased the hard to find stuff like crazy. I mean, it's limited quantity...right? It must be good...right?

Well, over time as my palate developed I came to realize I have a wide range of favorites that I can by anytime, painlessly, at a decent price. The Padron's, the Fuente's, Pete and his cigars,....cover a lot of turf. I just don't enjoy the chase for the rare stuff that much, anymore. Oh sure, there have been a couple "specials" that came along that I really liked (Tat's "Anarchy" and the SI-15 Padron come to mind) but overall, I just don't go out of my way to hunt down the specials.

Will they come and go? Do any of these have "staying power"...?? Are we in the middle of a boom? I don't know and honestly haven't given it much thought. I have gotten to the space where I don't care really care what's "hot" and what's not. I know what I like, and I smoke what I like. While I'm always interested in trying something new, I'm very happy with what's in the cabinet, right this second. And, god willing, I will most certainly be smoking the good stuff for at least another 20 years.

One man's opinion - N.F.H.

[OLS]

I would say that we are in another boom in one respect. I can't speak for anyone here, but I THINK
that what happened now not-so-recently, in Chicago, scared a lot of people back to the B&Ms. This
might lead to a bit of a boom as people who were poised to grow these great big collections of havanas
are forced by fear and intimidation and a lack of vendor support to fall back on the old standbys.

Couple that with the fact that even the people who were never in the market for havanas are all of a sudden
burning up the forums with requests for lists of "cheaper cigars that are good", increasing the business
of the Holt's, JRs and eek Thompson's. By design this increases the number of cigars sold by the BIG players
as they sell these generally cheaper 'cuban-branded' smokes by the big players.

Then add to that the previously discussed strategies of the boutique guys, who seem to realize that
their time in the game might be short, so they maximize the cash flow NOW with these must-have limited
editions. To me it even creates two distinct types of cigar stores. You have the old guard who are bound
by tradition or contract to offer ALL of the brands from the big players, who are also increasing their lines
and need for shelf space. Then you have the mavericks who will not be dictated to by Altadis who
can still have a kick a55 store by offering all of the boutiques that are more in demand and snubbing the
Altadis stuff altogether. But even though smoking laws are drying up the real estate that's smoke-friendly,
people still want to smoke and will find someplace to do it. I think on balance, we can be considered
in a mini-boom, constrained only by the crappy economy.

And you know how I know it?? Ask most retailers who will tell you the truth, and they will tell you demand
has slipped very little in 15 years, but everything lined up against smokers has increased tenfold.

[RevSmoke]

Originally Posted by OLS

I would say that we are in another boom in one respect. I can't speak for anyone here, but I THINK
that what happened now not-so-recently, in Chicago, scared a lot of people back to the B&Ms. This
might lead to a bit of a boom as people who were poised to grow these great big collections of havanas
are forced by fear and intimidation and a lack of vendor support to fall back on the old standbys.

Couple that with the fact that even the people who were never in the market for havanas are all of a sudden
burning up the forums with requests for lists of "cheaper cigars that are good", increasing the business
of the Holt's, JRs and eek Thompson's. By design this increases the number of cigars sold by the BIG players
as they sell these generally cheaper 'cuban-branded' smokes by the big players.

Then add to that the previously discussed strategies of the boutique guys, who seem to realize that
their time in the game might be short, so they maximize the cash flow NOW with these must-have limited
editions. To me it even creates two distinct types of cigar stores. You have the old guard who are bound
by tradition or contract to offer ALL of the brands from the big players, who are also increasing their lines
and need for shelf space. Then you have the mavericks who will not be dictated to by Altadis who
can still have a kick a55 store by offering all of the boutiques that are more in demand and snubbing the
Altadis stuff altogether. But even though smoking laws are drying up the real estate that's smoke-friendly,
people still want to smoke and will find someplace to do it. I think on balance, we can be considered
in a mini-boom, constrained only by the crappy economy.

And you know how I know it?? Ask most retailers who will tell you the truth, and they will tell you demand
has slipped very little in 15 years.

Some interesting thoughts to ponder there. Thanks for the imput.

[markem]

I agree with the Rev regarding some of the traits of the expansion and contraction of the market for new cigar offerings. I've been smoking cigars since I was a junior in high school (and coincidentally simultaneously a freshman in college), which makes it late in '76 when I started.

It is possible that the current trend of more marcas and vitolas as well as the trend towards special releases is short term (few years), but it is also possible that it is here to stay. I am tending to believe that it (the trend of more marca and vitolas) is here to stay since the economy and product availability that we see today is substantially more global than in the 80s. The idea of a boutique cigar being able to pop up and be profitable for a few years and then disappear is a very real business model now, one that I don't think existed in the 80s. Certainly there was very little ability for there to be an "Internet buzz" (NSFNet buzz back then) in the 80s to drive the interest in marcas that come and go.

Now, I do believe that there will be a trend for cigar companies to come and go quite quickly but that there will continue to be relatively few players behind all this change. The idea of being in on the next great smoke seems to drive many in our hobby regardless as to whether or not the next great smoke is merely a rebanding or rerolled version of last year's hot stick.

I think I'll haul this topic to the cigar bar this afternoon for some conversation in between US Open banter.

[OLS]

I also think that THIS TIME, we are not likely to have a repeat of the birth and death of all the boutiques.
I think this is due to simply one fact: the last boom caught everyone by surprise. THere was no way that
you can take a product that takes 3-5 years from seed to store and produce it in a year or less, and that's just what
they tried to do, all of em. Now all the big manufacturers have at least 8 years of tobacco on hand and most
of the small ones 3-5 minimum. I talk like I know, haha, I don't KNOW. But I feel like I have been keeping up enough
to lay it out there. Good tobacco and good connections will lead to good cigars that smokers will smoke and enjoy.
Most of the dead retailers couldn't DO that. Their cigars were barely smokeable, and they thought "If I can just
hang on two years, I will have a GOOD cigar on store shelves." But for 90% of them, the first impression was the last,
and they are all gone. I think one that stayed longest but might be gone now is Cupido. I also think CAO was there.
But look at Drew Estate....serious boutique, now threatening to break out of that class into major manufacturer.
I would be SHOCKED if Acid disappeared, and apparently Liga Privada is being smoked by a few people....hehe.
All the good players have tobacco on hand and contracts on paper for the future. Chances are 70% if you are
smoking a boutique blend today, it will be there in ten years. I can't say what will happen to the small shelf
space boutiques, but I think this is a boom that will simply turn into a trend and then into an era. Like I said,
constraints on smoking or not, demand is NOT GOING DOWN, and times are really tough. This may be the START of a boom.

[Ogre]

I think it's the next generation of cigar smokers. Look at the 30 somethings, they grew up with cell phones, computers, high tech cars and constantly on the go. I totally believe it's in the marketing. Look at a Pete Johnson (Tat) or ACID adds in the magazines. They are geared to the younger smokers who want the newest, best cigars on the market. Just like with cars, as a kid you want flash and speed (something new each year). As you grow you settle down and thing change. Flashy is replaced with dependability and speed is replaced with comfort. I know my taste have evolved in the short time I have been smoking cigars. I have come to like the "old school" makers for delivering a great stick year after year. Who is to say the next Tat (just an example) is going to out shine last years release. I know an AF 858 Maduro is going to be a cigar I can buy in any B&M and it will be the same quality. I think thinks will change back as this next generation settles down an realizes how good things really are. Just my 2 cents worth.

[357]

If I remember correctly cigar sales nationally have surpassed the boom numbers of the 90s, only this time it was a steady increase every year rather than double digit ups and downs.

I think all the manufacturers are trying to get in on this overall increase in the sale of cigars. One of the more popular ways seems to be boutique brands and/or LEs. It is also probably easier to have a new LE each year than to try to maintain an existing one with new tobacco from year to year. I mean it can't be easy to make a 2011 Opus taste anything like a 2001 Opus. So in some ways, why bother? Just release a new named version every year Tat Fank, Tat Face, etc. Not to mention, new name = new buzz. Just a thought on LEs.

To be honest since I started leaning heavily toward CCs, all the buzz on the NC side is kind of white noise. Sure I'll try a single hear and there, but I'm not chomping at the bit to run out and buy a box of the newest Tat or whatever. Not to pic on Tatuaje, as they make fine smokes, I'm just using them as an example. Sure CCs have their own LE & RE, but I feel the same. I buy standard releases that I like. I can't afford all that limited and regional special release stuff.

I think the overall good sales of cigars has fostered this environment. If there was a dip for a couple years I think you'd see a lot of this boutique stuff fade, but the good ones would stick around.