Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Well I dusted off the not-so-old cobs and bought a few tins of baccy. I decided I wanted to try a Va\Per since I generally gravitate toward the latkia blends and thought I'd try something different. I got a tin of GLP Stratford and enjoy it very much, but learning very quickly that I have to limit it, as well as very delicately nurse the bowl to keep it as cool as possible, otherwise my tongue will pay dearly.

I also bought a tin of GLP Barbary Coast, which seems much more forgiving on my tongue; presumably because it's a burley dominant blend.

Although I'm still fairly new to pipe smoking, I'm fairly confident that I'm not smoking too aggressively, or too hot. I believe my tongue is just more sensitive to the Virginia tobaccos.

With that said, can some of you with experience in the Va\Per department please recommend some high quality Virginia Perique blends that aren't so harsh? If such a thing exists... Thanks!

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I'm not sure what causes tonge bite, but dunhill Elizabethan mixture can sting me from time to time. I can't recall being bitten from any of the vaper flakes I have tried, though I think escudo has the potential. I enjoy G&H Louisiana flake, PS luxury navy flake, PS luxury twist, McClelland 22, and Beacon Extra. None of those have hurt me yet.

Now, if I could find a nice latakia flake...

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Well, this is a tough one. GLP usually has no problem with tongue bite. So, I am going to ask a couple questions.

1) Are you a cigar smoker? I ask because many of those who are transitioning from cigars or from Latakia blends to Virginias or VaPers, expect high volumes of smoke because that is what they were getting. It may be that someone is smoking harder than they realize, just to produce the amount of smoke the want, and it can happen without the smoker even realizing it.

1a) Virginia are the pipe tobacco with the highest natural sugar content, and they naturally burn hotter. Burley has arguable the lowest sugar content, and therefore cools a blend.

2) Have you any other brands that have caused you tongue bite? I ask because everybody's chemical composition is different. It is because of that some people have a different response to particular blenders, for whatever reason. For example, I cannot smoke anything made by MacBaren, they all fry my tongue.

I have come to really enjoy VaPers as my favorite pipe tobacco genre. I also tend to fall into the habit of smoking a bit more aggressively than I should, and have to watch myself very carefully lest I fall into that habit and fry my tongue.

So, if you want VaPers which I enjoy and find do not bite me, here they are:
Gawith & Hoggarth Louisiana Flake
Samuel Gawith St. James Flake
Escudo
Peter Stokkebye Luxury Navy Flake

Hope that helps.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

Todd

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Cornell & Diehl Pirate Kake. (OK, it is a kake and not a flake, but close enough.)

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I don't know if you have tried Brebbie Latakia Flake? I thought it was a nice Flake.

F&K Lancer Slices is almost a flake (Broken Flake). Loved by many

Only ones I can think of right now

James

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I see that Escudo a lot on tobacco reviews, so maybe I'll give that a go.

With the GLP Stratford I tend to use a faster cadence with very shallow puffs. Maybe a small puff every 2-3 seconds. The amount of smoke I blow out is very similar to when the weather is cool enough to start frosting your breath. It's a very low volume of smoke. Even still, I can feel it working on my tongue from the moment I light it. I get a sense of pins and needles and a scratchy sensation.

I got some GH Nougat aromatic. I haven't really cared for it too much and have only smoked a few bowls. I don't think it really gave me any problems though.

English blends seem to work well for me and I've never had a problem with Frog Morton. I smoked a bowl of On the Town last night and really had no issues whatsoever. In fact, I can smoke this a little faster and draw deeper into the bowl. The Barbary Coast is similar in that it doesn't seem to bother me.

I have a couple jars of PS proper english blend and that doesn't smoke as smoothly as the frog morton either. It's been a while, but I seem to recall it giving me trouble

I feel as though it's not a burn from temperature so much as more of an allergic reaction. I say this because I have an allergy to certain nuts and the sensation is very similar. I just wonder if my mouth objects to certain tobaccos. :(

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

By the way, what affect does aging have on Virginia blends? I've read they get sweeter over time, so does that mean the sugar content rises and therefore burns hotter?

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I am not an Expert even smoking for the last 25 years I am far from it. I don't know about the allergic aspect of smoking tobaccos. I do know that I have some pipes I can't smoke some tobaccos through the way I like to smoke them anyway. I tend to smoke faster then most.
Some tobaccos I love the taste in many pipes and most Aromatics I have to smoke them in larger bowl packed lighter, and smoke slower. If I am smoking them in a meerschaum or Cob let me at it no issues at all.
It has been about 4 years now since my last bad Burn. One that made me stay away from a pipe for a couple of weeks. Not only my tongue but my mouth was on FIRE. Now days I clean my pipes more then I should and don't have sour pipes or have I had a bad bite. Also I found out that if I dry my tobaccos some in the day that I am going to smoke them that I don't have this Bite. I know it isn't the same for everyone as not everyone knows what or when they will smoke. however I would say if you have some wet tobacco and you feel it needs to be dried out some. take some out and let it sit. Once it is dry enough put it in a Jar or old tin or even a bag and smoke the dried one first.

I love Aromatics. I don't mind that others don't like them. I don't smoke for others I smoke for me.

In closing, I want to ask if you have tried some of the Hearth & Home blends? Some people think they are to dry but IMHO I think they are perfect and I have yet to find one that has ever given me bite or burn no matter how HOT I smoke them. I can smoke them so hot that you wouldn't want to touch the pipe and no burn/bite in EVERY PIPE I have smoked them in it is the same. SP and p&c both sell them P&C would be best bet for all blends seeing is blended there.

James

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Oh and one more thing I like about Hearth & Home. With the Tobaccos being drier. When you get 2oz it isn't really 1.5oz when dried it is 2oz. Wet tobacco weigh more and losing .5oz may be to much loss but you get the point you will loose some weight when the tobacco dries out

James

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Thank you, James. I will check out pipes and cigars and try their blends.

It's so weird how I can smoke 5 cigars in a day and nub them down to nothing more than a smoldering cherry and have no problems except burning my lips, yet certain pipe tobaccos wreck my tongue.

Sometimes the bottom of my tongue even gets inflamed and painful.

Maybe I should try some of the cigar blends.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Hearth & Home has Stogie. That is a nice Tobacco as well. I have heard others that can't stand smoking cigar tobacco in the pipe. I smoke both cigars and Pipes and I have had some cigars burn..... Most times it is just Draw issues...... then I just send a poker down the cigar and good....

James

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

At a puff every 2-3 seconds, you are smoking way to fast. I do not think it is allergy, although it might be. I leave my pipe in my mouth, and I do a puff every 30-45 seconds. If I am talking with the pipe in my mouth, I do even fewer puffs as the air is enough to keep it burning.

Here is another thought, sometimes it is the pipe. Certain pipes smoke certain blends well, but other blends not so well - not every pipe is a VaPer pipe. VAs and VaPers I smoke in smaller bowls.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

They age like a cigar or good wine, not sweeter so much as becoming richer in flavor. In 5 years, I have had sugar crystals appear on flakes. You can tell the difference, that it is not mold because you can see the crystals shimmer.

It does not smoke hotter, but it does almost smoke richer, if I can say it that way.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

OH yeah, another suggestion is, dry out your blends a bit before smoking them.

Also, make sure your pipes are dry, and have had a chance to dry completely before filling them to smoke again.

And, as James has suggested, clean your pipes regularly.

As you are smoking a bowl, if you have a gurgle, run a pipe cleaner through the pipe, it should pass completely through (do not take the bit out of the pipe while you are smoking it - EVER!!!).

By the way, I forgot Hearth and Home Anniversary Kake, and Cornell and Diehl's Night Train and Back Porch.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I guess I could have explained that better; I don't puff on it continuously. I puff until it restokes the bowl, which I would say requires several puffs taken every few seconds. Then I let it rest awhile. I am still trying to find that sweet spot where it doesn't extinguish. I usually have to relight at least twice, sometimes more. I'm still trying to get the bowl packing down.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Don't be afraid of relighting, it is OK. Sometimes it is because the moisture content of the tobacco is too high.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Okay, how dry should it be? According to GLP website it should be like 10-15% and the tobacco shouldn't clump when you pinch it. I can follow that well enough, but how do I know if it's too dry?

Thanks for your help.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I bought a tin of the Escudo Navy Deluxe and the Sam Gawith St. James. I also bought a smooth Peterson System Pipe (307).

Hoping this briar will work better than my savinelli.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

It is too dry if becomes dust when you pinch it.

As with much of this, what works for you might not work for me and vice versa.

Also, each individual tobacco needs to determine who dry it should be. For example. I find I like G&H Louisiana Flake drier than I like PS Luxury Navy Flake. I like my "English" blends even drier than my Virginias and VaPers.

So, experiment and have fun doing so.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Thank you, Todd. I appreciate yours and others help!

I think the Peterson pipe has a fairly large bowl, so I'm thinking I might get a smaller "pot" style pipe to dedicate to VaPer's.

Not sure if this is considered a pot, but it seems to have a shallow bowl:

http://www.peterson.ie/p/5308/303-rustic

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I guess it's a bent apple.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

to prevent tongue bite try drinking a hot or warm beverage while smoking, red wine also helps prevent tongue bite for some people. Make sure not to pack your bowl to tight or too loose. to treat tongue bite try some aloe vera juice, and/or biotene mouthwash.

as far as a vaper recommendation, I like orlik golden sliced, and Missouri meerschaum country gentleman

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

WOW so strange. It is a MM Cob not the gentleman, But Not only was the pipe the same I was smoking some Orlik just getting ready to upload what is in my pipe.... Where are the Cameras I feel like I am on the Truman show LOL

James

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...psh1gpuga5.jpg

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

:tf we're always watching :po

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

also, nice choice of baccy and pipe :tu

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I have 2 country gentleman pipes. In fact last night I just tried to fill up the bottom of the bowl on one of them with some pipe mud to see if I can improve the burning characteristics. Based on what I've read, I think I may have used too much water though. It seems people have the most luck when they make a very thick paste. Back to the drawing board!

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

So I think drying the tobacco is key for me. I finally dried it out to the point where it actually felt too dry, but wasn't fragile or crumbling. If this were a cigar wrapper, the cigar would be unsmokable by this standard, but it seemed to work rather well in the pipe. The smoke was noticeably cooler, was easier to keep lit and tasted oh-so-wonderful. I also noticed that the ash was white, whereas before there was a lot more dark charcoal looking pieces. I assume it's because it's burning all the way through now.

Thank you!

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Bingo!!! I wondered if that might be the problem. Tobacco is often over humidified for storage so it does not dry out. AND, dare I say it, water is cheaper to produce than good tobacco? OK, that is the cynic in me.

Peace of The Lord be with you.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I wondered this too. I wonder how much tobacco do you actually get in a 50g tin after drying? It seems like it would lose quite a bit of weight.

Anyways, this has really opened up a whole new world of tobacco experience for me! I *really* enjoyed that GLP VaPer in my new cob. Even though you don't get billowing plumes of smoke as you do with a cigar, it's really very tasty and sweet. I also think I may need to give my pipes a good cleaning. Do you guys build a cake on your cobs? I have quite a bit built up on a few of mine and I wonder if I should try and ream it down some. How much char flavor does this impart to the tobacco?

Lastly, I think my cadence is still pretty fast. I take very tiny puffs more frequently, but I cannot let the pipe rest for 30-45 without it being at high risk of going out. I'd say maybe 15-20 seconds is what I have been averaging during resting periods. I am determined to practice as much as possible in hopes that it will become somewhat autonomous so that I don't feel like I'm having to fret over it too much.

Thanks again all!

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Moisture loss isn't as much as you'd think, but it is significant. The other thing is, it does not age well without the moisture, nor does it stay as fresh without the moisture. I let the tobacco I am going to put into a pipe dry out a bit, outside the tin, before I pack my pipe.

As for cake, about an 1/8 of an inch is plenty. If you get more than that, a reaming is necessary - briar or cob.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

Todd

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I've often wondered if tobacco is processed at 18% or so moisture, what good is it to "dry" it when the ambient RH is 40%, or 90% in my area? It would seem to me to be wetter once laid out for a while. Inquiring minds and such...

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

You'd be surprised... I know that humidity here is like 8?% most of the summer and I can rub tobacco out and it will be drier than it was. It just happens.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I wish I could smoke in person with a seasoned pipe smoker to see if I'm doing this right.

I think my tongue is just super sensitive to this type of tobacco. I don't know why. I can smoke 6 cigars in a day and have no issues, but a few bowls of baccy and my tongue gets pretty beat up.

I feel like I have to light the dang thing like 5 times and I'm smoking as slow as I possibly can. I also really limit how much smoke I take in. It's very minimal when compared to a cigar. My tongue still feels a bit raw. It's not completely painful, but it feels like similar to when you eat hot food and burn your tongue, but on the tail end of healing. Still a little raw I guess. I guess I'm improving, but still have some discomfort.

Is this something that just takes some getting used to? Does your body (tongue) need to adjust?

I also think the relights might be causing issues, as that seems to be the point at which there is the greatest risk of getting copious amounts of very hot smoke. I tend to try and get an even cherry throughout the top of the bowl, but maybe I just need to take a few puffs and let it do it's thing so as to not torch the tobacco and my tongue in the process?

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Everybody's body chemistry is different, so you might be having issues because of that. If I might suggest, go without any tobacco for a few days, cigar or pipe. If you can, a whole week would be very good. You may think you can smoke 6 cigars without affect, but it is not true - it may be subtle, but your tongue is affected.

So, what blends are you having problems with in particular? What brand & what blend?

Sitting with an experienced smoker might be a good idea.

You notice relights cause problems? Usually a relight means you are puffing a little harder, or more forcefully. If you have to relight, first run a pipe cleaner through it (do not remove the bit to do so), this removes any possible remaining moisture, which is usually the culprit of any tongue bite.

Yes, I know, it is a lot to remember.

Peace of The Lord be with you.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

No smoking for a week!?! BLASPHEMY! You are probably right though. I smoke 2-3 something per day. Cigars, bowls, cigars and bowls. I smoke about 3 times per day.

The VaPer's are the most challenging. GLP Stratford gave me the least trouble. SG St. James Flake and GLP Laurel Heights give me equal trouble I'd say. Frog Morton OTT and GLP Gaslight seem to smoke really smooth.

Last night I had a bowl of Laurel Heights in my MM great dane egg churchwarden and tried to be extra cognizant about the heat. I definitely think the relights lower into the bowl give me the greatest chance of burning my tongue. I can actually feel it burning. I suspect it's because the tobacco is more moist lower in the bowl coupled with the high heat of trying to get it lit. The initial light and small puffs early on do not cause any burning sensation.

I also did not dry the tobacco out as much as I have been, which seems to really impact the combustion. Halfway down the bowl the tobacco starts to become black and charred and hard to light or keep lit. I'm still trying to find that sweet spot, but starting to think going too dry is preferable over too moist, at least for virginias.

This is quite a learning curve compared to cigars!

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

One thing I am not an Expert, I was going to say maybe a bigger bowl pipe and longer Stem, However you are already using a Churchwarden so could be bowl size. There are just some Tobacco that I can't smoke in a Small bowl. I leave the small bowls for Flake and really dry tobacco. If it is WET at all it don't smoke well and BITES bad. Also I have found that if I dry my Tobacco that is most times wet I can smoke it all to the bottom of the bowl, IF it is wet it goes about 3/4 or little more then just gets to wet in the bowl to smoke. If I want to finish because of the Tobacco I will let it rest and Dry for the day and smoke it as my last bowl at night. Some people that that is nasty but you know what I have been smoking for 25 years and I don't smoke for anyone other then my own pleasure.

I don't know your pipe I assume that the Cob Churchwarden is a small bowl. I would try it in a Legend Cob and see if it smokes the same. I think you will find it don't and the Legend will smoke better with the bigger bowl. Infact may be a different all together experience.

For me I smoke to much and to often. I smoke some that I just can't stand and the next day in a different pipe I love it. Just have to remember the Pipe combo for tobacco. The key for me, I keep my pipes overly clean and use loads of Pipe cleaners on the tobaccos that need them. Some tobacco combos I can go a whole bowl and need 0 cleaners and some I need 2 or 3 uses. Some of my pipes I like them more with the Screw in stems because I can use cleaners all the way to the bowl by unscrewing it without the worry of messing up the briar. I to smoke Pipes and cigars. used to be 4 or so cigars and 1 or 2 pipes However with changing times and what not I now smoke a Cigar a day and 8 to 10 bowls of Tobacco. I could get away with 1 or 2 if I smoked Dunhill 965 or GLP JackKnife more. So far they put me down for the count LOL....

James

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

James,

That's a lot of smoking! I can smoke more on weekends, but with school and work I just don't have time to smoke any more, which is probably a good thing for me.

The Great Dane has a larger bowl by cob standards.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Pipe cleaners are your friend. Use them liberally. Use them between lights.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I keep forgetting to do this.

Is this still necessary on a Peterson system? How about a filtered pipe? Savinelli will be my next pipe.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

:tpd:

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

SOP after a bowl has died. Run a pipe cleaner through the shank into the bowl, and same for the stem. Simply keeps it cleaned up as you go along...

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

You don't mean separating the stem from the shank, do you?

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

What are you still doing up anyways?;)

Yes. After a bowl, I twist the stem from the shank. Run a pc into the shank and to the bottom of the bowl. Turn it around and do it again. Then do the same process to the stem. This simply clean out the "brown gunk" and helps maintain a somewhat clean draft hole. You use up two pipe cleaners:)

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I'm up because I work night shift. I asked 'cause it sounded like you meant while you were smoking. As soon as it cools down I'm doing a cleaning; I was a Bubblehead, after all and I'm kinda nutz.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

I am not a fan of Peterson pipe, their "system" pipes seem to be nothing more than a pooling system for tongue bite, at least for me. And, they are the worst pipes to try and break in, the crap the use to coat the inside of the pipe seems to do more to make a pipe smoke hot and the natural cooling nature of the porous briar is severely inhibited. (Of course, many people love them)

As for the Savinelli, you will receive filters and an inserts for if you do not use the filters. You may try the filters if you so desire, that is you prerogative. Personally, the filter in any pipe are a nuisance and inhibit air flow, thus causing friction in the flow and sometimes enhancing tongue bite.

They also get in the way of the liberal use of a pipe cleaner while smoking.

Oh, and never take a pipe apart when it is warm.

Another thing, if a pipe cleaner does not pass while a pipe is unlit, it will probably cause bite. When I look at new pipes, I run a pipe cleaner through it while put together, it should pass through to the bottom of the bowl with minimal effort (as the tip of cleaner might be bent, you may have to turn it a bit to get it to pass through). Reputable shops will understand and have no problem with my doing so. I once found a Don Carlos that still had the drill filings in the stem - it was a royal pain. I have even sent pipes back I ordered online as they arrived and a pipe cleaner would not pass through in any way.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

Todd

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

This is pure gold! Thanks Rev. :salute:

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Thanks, guys. I'm starting to regret the Peterson. I won't be spending any more money on their products. Their service sucks. This experience had led me to comissions a handmade billiard from a local up and coming artist, Jerry Crawford. Spendy, but hoping it will be worth the cost.

As a side note, I thought the military mount could be disassembled while the pipe is warm.

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Sorry started to write this about 3 hours ago. had it all done besides the photos. Since then I had smoked a Padron 1926 while drinking a Beer and manning the the BBQ Very nice steaks and ribs.

I don't have a Peterson Pipe. However in every pipe that I have that is bent and has a Peterson type holding area, While smoking, the pipe cleaner can only go down to the holding area. I haven't seen one yet that you could pass a Pipe cleaner from bit to the bowl. In fact it would take away from being able to clean the extra fluids from the holding area. In fact one reason I miss my Ajustamatic Dr. Grabow Regal is because it had a screw in Stinger. Where my not as old Dr. Grabow Savoy has a stinger but isn't screw in and can't be removed while smoking and if I smoke to wet of tobacco in the pipe it seems to always fill the holding area to the height of the air way and starts to send the bite my way.. So I only smoke Hearth & Home tobacco or Orlik Golden Sliced in that pipe. None of the system (type) pipes I have, Includes 8 Dr. Grabows, 3 Savinellis 1 Roma (Made by Savinelli) 2 French Bruyere pipes and a Made in Italy Oom Paul type pipe all have a extra holding area, some better then others. I can smoke them all with Aromatics or Va/Per with out an issue. Starting this writing the fist time, I have since re wrote what i was writing and even was going to start a different thread and came back here, Taking 3 pictures to address a couple of things. First picture is the best I can do to show a holding are like a Peterson in my Savinelli 622 KS That is now my favorite pipe of all my pipes, You can not see the Air way into the bowl but it is there LOL. Next picture I took while I started to smoke some Connoisseur's Choice by Peterson, was going to add to what is in my bowl thread however it kind of shows the start of the 3rd picture that is me taking a Pipe cleaner and the only one sent down this pipe the whole smoking time to show how little Moisture it took from that holding area. However it took it all that had made it there. Some Blends will be much worse. I know it is different tobacco then what we are talking about. Just trying to show what should be done from time to time with a pipe like the Peterson's system pipe to keep the extra fluids from creating tongue bite. As long as it don't have a Filter or Stinger

Maybe try Hearth & Home AJ's VaPer, It has some added Black Cav to add some sweetness.... I tried very hard to get it to burn hot and create tongue bite. Got the Pipe hot no bite. Very nice dry tobacco worth a try...

James

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...pso0roe4vv.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...pslzeeiang.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...pszuvpbjoj.jpg

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Hey, do not get down on Petersons because of me. They have sold probably tens of thousands of pipes, so they must work for some people - lots of them in fact.

So, if you ordered one, you may one of those who can smoke a Peterson and enjoy it. I have a buddy who absolutely loves them, has about 20 of them. They are handsome pipes.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

Todd

Re: Tongue Bite..Va\Per recommendations?
 

Yeah, me too. What's up with them, I thought that was one of the attractions of them?