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-   -   Clarification on beads, KL and SAP (http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23016)

MiLKMD 10-13-2009 01:09 PM
Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Two points from a very informative earlier thread that I want clarification:

Quote:
Originally Posted by shilala (Post 571005)
I just read what I wrote, and left out a biggie.
"Propylene/water hydrated SAP doesn't adsorb water" is a large point.
If for some reason the ambient RH around a humi is greater than 70%, there's great potential for problems, especially if a humi is leaky.
If someone lived in Arizona or the desert or up in Siberia, it's an excellent choice because those humis require a lot of available water.
How does PG not absorb water? PG is hygroscopic and by definition will absorb excess water out of the atmosphere until equilibrium is reached. Part of what makes PG/water solution so effective is the vapor pressure lowering (of water) effect of PG. At various concentrations around 50% the vapor pressure of water is kept around 70% RH and vapor pressure of PG almost negligible at room temperature (<1%). The SAP acts as a medium to hold the solution similar to foam but one could just as simply leave a cup of PG in a humidor and achieve the same effect as beads. Is it the SAP itself that prevents absorption? As stated above, the advantage of PG/water in SAP is the amount of water that the crystals have. In environments in which the atmospheric RH is significantly less than the humidor and there is some leak, SAP has advantages over beads in providing larger reservoirs of water to release.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobarian (Post 570723)
Kitty litter will absorb moisture(humidity) that is what they were designed to do. But they WILL NOT regulate or release moisture at a set level. Though they are both the same product chemically. Kitty litter has not been treated to regulate at a specific RH. I believe kitty litter will work well in high humidity areas, but out here in Cali. Heartfelt beads are the best way to go. :2
I have seen this statement frequently on the forums, that KL will not release water. Why is this so? KL is silica gel and all silica gels are hygroscopic. I will concede the point that plain gel (which is probably what KL is composed) has an M(H) value much lower than treated Heartfelt beads at 70% RH. But nevertheless KL will release as well as absorb water. The key point is finding a buffering agent with the highest M(H) value at the desired RH. Artsorb for example has a very high buffering capacity at RH > 70%. I read with great interest Shilala's experiment with KL and treated beads the amount of each needed. In essence he has derived experimentally rather than mathematically a comparison of M(H) of various substances at 70% RH. However it is still possible to use KL or any silica gel for that matter to maintain a set RH via pre-conditioning. The only question, as Shilala so eloquently answered in his experiment, is how much of each agent is needed and at what price/performance ratio.

icehog3 10-13-2009 02:12 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Sorry, I was a Political Science major.

ahc4353 10-13-2009 02:15 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Don't think I have ever seen such a deep involved introduction post.

Way over my simple head for SURE!

As info it would be nice if you headed oever to the New Inmate section and let us know a little about you. Thanks in advance.

Old Sailor 10-13-2009 02:43 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
But MCS likes cake:D

bobarian 10-13-2009 02:50 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
My reference is to pure KL out of the box/jar. Untreated KL is a pure dessicant, the point at which it will release Rh is far below that which we would find acceptable for cigar storage. In certain parts of the country KL may indeed work as an adequate absorbent. But for those of us with Rh below 80% they are a very inefficient means of regulating Rh. :2

icehog3 10-13-2009 03:19 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
What Bob said. :)

ade06 10-13-2009 03:21 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
What language are you all speaking?

jledou 10-13-2009 03:30 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
I am not 100% on the chemistry but PG has a high solubility for water but does not actively absorb the moisture from the air. I believe the motive here is that when it forms into solution it acts as a common fluid i.e. it evaporates evenly. It may reach equilibrium around 70% RH for a 50/50 mixture but if it actively absorbed or there was desorption of the water as with the RH beads then PG would be left behind or become diluted changing the RH constantly. Someone hit me over the head but I am just trying to think this out logically without 100% of the chemistry.

T.G 10-13-2009 04:17 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
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Again?

shilala 10-13-2009 04:33 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiLKMD (Post 597956)
Two points from a very informative earlier thread that I want clarification:



How does PG not absorb water? PG is hygroscopic and by definition will absorb excess water out of the atmosphere until equilibrium is reached. Part of what makes PG/water solution so effective is the vapor pressure lowering (of water) effect of PG. At various concentrations around 50% the vapor pressure of water is kept around 70% RH and vapor pressure of PG almost negligible at room temperature (<1%). The SAP acts as a medium to hold the solution similar to foam but one could just as simply leave a cup of PG in a humidor and achieve the same effect as beads. Is it the SAP itself that prevents absorption? As stated above, the advantage of PG/water in SAP is the amount of water that the crystals have. In environments in which the atmospheric RH is significantly less than the humidor and there is some leak, SAP has advantages over beads in providing larger reservoirs of water to release.



I have seen this statement frequently on the forums, that KL will not release water. Why is this so? KL is silica gel and all silica gels are hygroscopic. I will concede the point that plain gel (which is probably what KL is composed) has an M(H) value much lower than treated Heartfelt beads at 70% RH. But nevertheless KL will release as well as absorb water. The key point is finding a buffering agent with the highest M(H) value at the desired RH. Artsorb for example has a very high buffering capacity at RH > 70%. I read with great interest Shilala's experiment with KL and treated beads the amount of each needed. In essence he has derived experimentally rather than mathematically a comparison of M(H) of various substances at 70% RH. However it is still possible to use KL or any silica gel for that matter to maintain a set RH via pre-conditioning. The only question, as Shilala so eloquently answered in his experiment, is how much of each agent is needed and at what price/performance ratio.
Propylene glycol is hygroscopic, but only so far as it's volumetric nature allows it to gather water, and that volume is very minimal volume per volume.
There's charts and stuff, I'm not going to blather. Well, that's not completely true. I'm going to blather, just not about PG so much. :)

To answer your question, when combined with water or SAP, it's hygroscopic properties are instantly defeated, because you've just created a saturated solution. Saturated meaning, well, saturated. As in "I can no longer gather water because I'm saturated, thus I, propylene gylcol, am no longer hygroscopic until I get this water out of me (at least to a point where the water has been reduced below it's capacity to hold water hygroscopically)".

Some instances for illustration...
1.) Mixed with water or SAP, PG will only release water at "a rate equal to 70% RH". That's cool, because in a saturated solution you can control the release of water, holding it at 70% (because of the vapor pressure variance you mentioned earlier).
So in this instance, you've got a great opportunity to use it where a lot of water is needed to maintain a humidor.
It's an excellent choice for very dry places, or for leaky humidors in very dry places.
If your humidor sits in an area where the ambient RH is higher than 70%, the humidor is going to assume the higher ambient over time, whether it be through frequent opening or an inherently leaky humi.
That's the "downfall". PG is hygroscopic, yes. It's not when it's saturated.
Even when it's not saturated, it's ability to soak up water is nominal at best.

2.) Used in beads...
Beads are a dessicant. They gather water. They'll gather water until they reach an equilibrium with their ambient.
If part of the beads are treated with a PG/water solution, those beads will release water until they've achieved 70%RH.
The untreated beads in the bead product will try to gather water until the cows come home.
This is tough to explain, because there's more than one thing at play.
You have dry beads available to adsorb water, and you have PG/water soaked beads trying to give up water.
This all adds up to a medium that will release water AND adsorb water, but it has little to nothing to do with the hygrospic nature of Propylene glycol, because we've already defeated that by saturating it. The only reason I even qualified with the word "little" is because some beads could exist in the mixture that only have PG in them, and there's a very insignifigant chance that would play some tiny role.
In essence, you have beads "battling it out", with a control medium that is the Propylene glycol.
That allows a nice control, by both gathering and releasing water at a particular RH.
The only way to screw this up is to overwater the beads. Once the beads are saturated, you've just turned them into the same thing as a pg/water/sap medium.
Inversely, we can keep the beads totally dry and they will simply adsorb water until they've reached equilibrium, which would be the 70% that the PG dictates. Then they'll need to be dried out to continue adsorbing water.

3.) My beads...
There's no Propylene Glycol, salts, or anything. They simply work on equilibrium. They have a much higher affinity for gathering and releasing water than do silica beads, and their construction allows for a far greater resevoir of water to be made available for use in a humidor.
In a carefully sealed humidor, they are far and away the fastest and easiest way to control humidity. They also scavenge and hold free ammonia.
They simply rely on a bunch of math and physical principles to maintain RH in a humidor.

There's one thing that no beads or SAP can defeat, and that's a leaky humidor. Whether it be because it's warped, or it's a wine cooler and the drain isn't plugged, or because it's a generic piece of chinese handiwork.
A guy (or girl) is far better off with a rubbermaid container or a ziplock bag than a leaky humi.
Problem is, most are leaky.
Good thing is, most can be fixed. :tu

Hope this helps!!! :)
Scott

Old Sailor 10-13-2009 05:36 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Oh ya, crystal clear now!:confused::confused::r

chippewastud79 10-13-2009 05:43 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
I cannot believe how bad my head hurts right now. I think this discussion was just way over my head. :hm

Wharf Rat 10-13-2009 05:51 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Well, this will get me in lots of trouble. :)

I like to use beads and I know they are very effective. But, that is separate from the discussion of PG above. Sorry Shilala, I believe your explanation is flawed.

If you put a solution of water and PG in a closed volume, it has a vapor pressure in the air above it that is controlled by the solution's concentration and temperature. See the graph here:

http://www.lyondellbasell.com/techlit/techlit/2518.pdf .

If you check, a 50/50 solution has a vapor pressure at 70F that happens to correspond to the vapor pressure of water in air at 70F and 70% RH. So, it will reach this equilibrium.

I used PG on florist foam successfully for many years and still do in aging 'dors. It works fine in different conditions. However, in recent years it has been stylish to hold cigars at less than 70% RH, which PG cannot do. The value of the beads is their ability to hold an RH of 60 or 65%, which they do well.

Barteur 10-13-2009 06:21 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Sailor (Post 598327)
Oh ya, crystal clear now!:confused::confused::r
Dave you are funny.


Ok I read both thread, Twice, is it beacause I am French or I am not the only one who has problem following:)

You guys are out of my league with your beads. Me put distilled water on beads, me put beads in Humi, me happy Humi OK.:D

shilala 10-13-2009 07:06 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wharf Rat (Post 598366)
Well, this will get me in lots of trouble. :)

I like to use beads and I know they are very effective. But, that is separate from the discussion of PG above. Sorry Shilala, I believe your explanation is flawed.

If you put a solution of water and PG in a closed volume, it has a vapor pressure in the air above it that is controlled by the solution's concentration and temperature. See the graph here:

http://www.lyondellbasell.com/techlit/techlit/2518.pdf .

If you check, a 50/50 solution has a vapor pressure at 70F that happens to correspond to the vapor pressure of water in air at 70F and 70% RH. So, it will reach this equilibrium.

I used PG on florist foam successfully for many years and still do in aging 'dors. It works fine in different conditions. However, in recent years it has been stylish to hold cigars at less than 70% RH, which PG cannot do. The value of the beads is their ability to hold an RH of 60 or 65%, which they do well.
That's what I just said. :)
I guess if I'm flawed, we're in it together. :tu

icehog3 10-13-2009 07:21 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
I can hear my brain throb.

Dux 10-13-2009 09:10 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
This Thread needs a warning sign "May cause convulsing and Traumatic stress"

Adriftpanda 10-13-2009 09:13 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by icehog3 (Post 598565)
I can hear my brain throb.
:tpd: I tried reading this and I have no clue to what languages you guys are speaking. :(

md4958 10-13-2009 09:23 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
im going to bed now.

Skywalker 10-13-2009 09:43 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 

Is my ear bleeding???
http://muldersbigadventure.com/img/s...r-bleeding.jpg

Veritas 10-14-2009 03:06 AM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dux (Post 598736)
This Thread needs a warning sign "May cause convulsing and Traumatic stress"
or
"CAUTION: Techno-engineering speak ahead. Proceed at your own risk"
:r

shilala 10-14-2009 07:07 AM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Aww, it ain't that confusing. All I said is a sponge ain't very spongy after you fill it with water. :)
Someone should have worked in a picture of boobs. That usually helps. :tu

CigarNut 10-14-2009 08:48 AM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shilala (Post 599055)
Aww, it ain't that confusing. All I said is a sponge ain't very spongy after you fill it with water. :)
Someone should have worked in a picture of boobs. That usually helps. :tu
That would have been a really nice way to make me pay attention to a topic that is way over my head.:ss

md4958 10-14-2009 08:51 AM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarNut (Post 599190)
That would have been a really nice way to make me pay attention to a topic that is way over my head.:ss
:tpd:

TheTraveler 10-14-2009 09:00 AM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...S/3stooges.jpg

This kind of boob? :D

icehog3 10-14-2009 10:40 AM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTraveler (Post 599213)

Nope.....these boobs. ;)
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...g3/stooges.jpge

TheTraveler 10-14-2009 10:47 AM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
^^^ :r :r

shilala 10-14-2009 12:53 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
That is beautiful. :r :r :r

Quote:
Originally Posted by icehog3 (Post 599388)

coastietech 10-14-2009 01:07 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
When did this board become a nuclear physicist discussion boards?

I hypothesize that if the cigars aren't held at 62.5473038372% rH then they will be taken from you when the aliens come to take over the world. The only way to accurately maintain such an rH is to mix beads, PG, kitty litter, and floral foam in a blender and then pour over the cigars like a nice beurre blanc sauce. :tu

CigarNut 10-14-2009 01:51 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coastietech (Post 599674)
When did this board become a nuclear physicist discussion boards?

I hypothesize that if the cigars aren't held at 62.5473038372% rH then they will be taken from you when the aliens come to take over the world. The only way to accurately maintain such an rH is to mix beads, PG, kitty litter, and floral foam in a blender and then pour over the cigars like a nice beurre blanc sauce. :tu
If you are planning to do this, please send the cigars to me first! I will make better use of them than a sauce will allow!
:ss

Mr.maduro Man 05-24-2011 01:17 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Beads Vs KL crystals: So far I have yet to see one post that has 100% correct answers in regards to RH from your experiments with either Beads or KL crystals.
If RH of 65-70% was all that was vital, we would all be squared away. However, I have seen nothing on what your temperature are reading. I'm no expert by far but have been doing this for quit a while now and know from personal failure that even if you are right on the hammer with 65-70% RH you can still kill all of your cigars by not storing them in the correct temp as well. Both are extremly important. The temp should be at least 72F and no more than 75F for good storge and aging purposes. Now, it also depends on the sticks you are storing or aging. It's not all the same for ever cigar so be carfull when tuning your humidors.
Everthing from the ring size, length, wrapper, and current age of cigar from the grower will play a key role in getting this science working for you. I have found that on most of my cigars they are perfect at the 2 yr aging mark. I have had some that have gone south at the 5 yr mark.
Now I like the KL crystals myself for quantity and performance as well as price Vs the Beads. Plus they are easier to charge and stabilze a bit quicker. But to each their own, RIGHT?
Just looking out for anyone who loves their stogie's and doesn't enjoy throwing them and their money away when things go wrong. A dollar is a dollar! Better to smoke that dollar than to lose it out of lack of knowledge.-(P

icehog3 05-24-2011 01:26 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.maduro Man (Post 1273137)
The temp should be at least 72F and no more than 75F for good storge and aging purposes.
I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree. Welcome to the Asylum. :)

T.G 05-24-2011 01:28 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.maduro Man (Post 1273137)
Beads Vs KL crystals: So far I have yet to see one post that has 100% correct answers in regards to RH from your experiments with either Beads or KL crystals.
If RH of 65-70% was all that was vital, we would all be squared away. However, I have seen nothing on what your temperature are reading. I'm no expert by far but have been doing this for quit a while now and know from personal failure that even if you are right on the hammer with 65-70% RH you can still kill all of your cigars by not storing them in the correct temp as well. Both are extremly important. The temp should be at least 72F and no more than 75F for good storge and aging purposes. Now, it also depends on the sticks you are storing or aging. It's not all the same for ever cigar so be carfull when tuning your humidors.
Everthing from the ring size, length, wrapper, and current age of cigar from the grower will play a key role in getting this science working for you. I have found that on most of my cigars they are perfect at the 2 yr aging mark. I have had some that have gone south at the 5 yr mark.
Now I like the KL crystals myself for quantity and performance as well as price Vs the Beads. Plus they are easier to charge and stabilze a bit quicker. But to each their own, RIGHT?
Just looking out for anyone who loves their stogie's and doesn't enjoy throwing them and their money away when things go wrong. A dollar is a dollar! Better to smoke that dollar than to lose it out of lack of knowledge.-(P
Welcome to Cigar Asylum, it would be great if you could head over to the New Inmates area and post an intro.

cricky101 05-24-2011 01:29 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
I saw something about a boob picture earlier in this thread, scrolled all the way to the new posts, and NOTHING!! :td

pnoon 05-24-2011 01:30 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Temp at least 72F? That's more ludicrous than the rule of 3s.
Posted via Mobile Device

bonjing 05-24-2011 01:34 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
What's SAP?

Bill86 05-24-2011 01:37 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnoon (Post 1273154)
Temp at least 72F? That's more ludicrous than the rule of 3s.
Posted via Mobile Device
And it doesn't even sound as good :td

The rule of 3's kinda rolls off your tongue and has that stupid yet confident aspect about it that we all know and love.

Just when I thought this was another new thread about KL.......

A bumped old one, just as bad.

T.G 05-24-2011 01:42 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonjing (Post 1273161)
What's SAP?
Stuff that runs out of trees to make delicious things like maple syrup. :dr



nah...

Super Absorbent Polymers, for example: cigar gel like Humi-Care or the goop inside a water pillow.

bonjing 05-24-2011 01:51 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Thanks Adam.

OLS 05-24-2011 02:42 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.maduro Man (Post 1273137)
Better to smoke that dollar than to lose it out of lack of knowledge.-(P
Boy, you Sure got that right! NICE first POST!

Whee 05-24-2011 02:43 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...ng_a_movie.gif


http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...ing_to_add.gif

SvilleKid 05-24-2011 03:09 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cricky101 (Post 1273153)
I saw something about a boob picture earlier in this thread, scrolled all the way to the new posts, and NOTHING!! :td
So, if I post here, then my avatar should fulfill this requirement, right? Or, do I need a full size post of my avatar (that would probably get me in deeper hot water with folks at work viewing this than just the avatars). Better leave it with the avatar.

NCRadioMan 05-24-2011 03:25 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnoon (Post 1273154)
Temp at least 72F? That's more ludicrous than the rule of 3s.
Posted via Mobile Device
:r :r :r

Eleven 05-24-2011 03:47 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Subscribed!

I can't wait on the Intro Post!

BTcigars 05-24-2011 05:03 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cricky101 (Post 1273153)
I saw something about a boob picture earlier in this thread, scrolled all the way to the new posts, and NOTHING!! :td
Im glad that I am not the only one that got suckered into this!

Anyways, the makers of EquisiCat say that the blue crystals release humidity. There is an interesting thread about this on the "other" forum site. Also I use this KL and it holds at 68RH real nicely. Not bad considereing I bought 4 pounds for $9 :)

icehog3 05-24-2011 05:27 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
The KL issue has been debated ad naseum....I just wanted to address the concept of storing cigars at no less than 72*F.

T.G 05-24-2011 05:30 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by icehog3 (Post 1273435)
The KL issue has been debated ad naseum....I just wanted to address the concept of storing cigars at no less than 72*F.
http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...8972820424.jpg

Big meanine.

CigarNut 05-24-2011 06:29 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
OK. Just to cap off this thread: The Obligatory Boob Post:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1177/...e58937.jpg?v=0

longknocker 05-24-2011 07:22 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarNut (Post 1273525)
OK. Just to cap off this thread: The Obligatory Boob Post:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1177/...e58937.jpg?v=0
I Like The Change In Subject!:D:tu

ysr_racer 05-24-2011 08:12 PM
Re: Clarification on beads, KL and SAP
 
I was told there'd be no math.

Is the answer seven or cupcakes?


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