Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I logged in today to find a PM from one of my good friends on CA who is also effected by this. What this person told me was that hardcz has been banned. I scanned and scanned for any posts or threads related to what may have happened. Now I can suppose, assume or guess but I won't. The team of 11 had their reasons and they may or may not have coincided with what happened.

I have waffled back and forth about posting something here and have talked to a few people. It was being handled behind the scenes, I was a good soldier and stood down. Now it appears as though this is situation will just go away quietly. I am going to do my best to be factual and non judgemental about this situation but I think that the facts bear telling.

Fact - on March 16 I was invited by hardcz via PM to join a GB he was running for some custom sticks (I refrain from saying which ones as it is not relevant to the point and this vendor should not be viewed in the same light).

Fact - on March 31 I confirmed my interest and order level to hardcz as well as Vitola and sent him $652.93 (I can provide the transaction logs to support this) via electronic transaction

Fact - Over the course of the last 4 months I have on 3 occasions been told my order was complete and that it would be mailed expediently. The last of which was an openly posted DC number here THREAD .

Fact - On June 28 I was informed via email from hardcz that not only was I not going to get the volume that I was expecting but that there was also a mix up in the vitola, this results in my getting 40% of something I didn't order. At this point I am looking to recuop anything

Fact - It is July 27 and the DC number has not yet been scanned in at the departure point yet it was generated on July 14. The click and ship label was made for that number but to go where? It was never scanned at the mailing point, hence not recieved.

Fact - I have yet to recieve anything and Dan has failed to respond to my last 2 emails.

Now there are many other things I have heard via third party, and by those directly involved in this same group buy but I have no facts and therefore will not say anything there.

I am not sure to what benefit there is in saying nothing. Having posted here I do not expect any recourse, I do not expect my money back, I do not expect my order to be filled. What I expect is to move on having $652.93 less than I did before all this.

I do not hold any of the team of 11 or CA responsible in anyway. I do not feel it is there responsibility to try to police trading/group buys/sales/purchase in any way. I hold all of them in the utmost respect.

Now over my time on this forum (I combine the CS days as well) I have had a couple of deals gone bad. I am sure many of us who have done any trading has had it happen. The trade wasn't quite even, it took longer than it should have, product was damage or destroyed in transit. These things happen.

I am not talking about that, what I am seeing here at this point is that a person has taken my money for a service they were to render and has yet to render that service nor have they responded to any communication regarding that service so hence my conclusion is that this person has no intention in providing the service for which I paid. So effectively it is as if he reached into my pocket and took from me $652.93.

The reason I post this is that I don't think brushing it under the carpet and letting it quietly go away is right. hardcz has in my opinion based on the facts above done something that should be made public to his group of piers on this board. It should be known that at the time of this post he has failed to live up to an agreement that he made and took money for.

This should not be taken as a precursor to every transaction, I have done deals since and will continue dealing with people, I will be as cautious as I can be and limit my exposure but if something of the same ilk were to happen again, I will state the facts as well.

I have been careful in my wording to insure that I avoid inserting feeling and or insinutation here and I hope that I have not transgressed some unwritten rule of the forum for what I have said.

If you want the facts I will share them, I have nothing to hide.

Draw your own conclusions.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Shawn,

Sorry to hear about your financial loss. As many members here frequent other boards too I for one am happy to hear this info, while he is banned here he might not be banned elsewhere. While the chances of me dealing with him before this were slim, they are zero now. Thanks for looking out for the rest of us.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Sorry to hear shawn, you're right this could have happened to anybody, but i'm both saddened and pi$$ed off that this happen to someone like you, who is (to quote Scott) "generous to a fault" with people within this community.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I too was taken for a loop like Shawn. Not for nearly as much, but I feel his pain.

There was a time I called Dan my friend, when I would have even tried to defend him... quite honestly it's a slap in the face to myself and our BOTLs. Atleast he can't swindle us anymore...

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

He took you for $600+?

I'm sorry, but if someone took me for $600+, I'd kick their ass!!!!

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

The very bottom line is that it's theft - plain and simple. People go to jail for a lot less.


Ron

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Well, this does suck, but thanks for coming forward with a very restrained, to the point post. I can only hope that he eventually makes good to all parties involved, but he is a noob to the cigar community, and is just as likely to walk away from it. As stated on the other thread, it's up to folks to use their own judgment when buying, selling and trading online. I think people often mistake post count and "ring gauge", along with friendly online banter with character, knowledge and friendship. If your post makes anyone think twice before sending money to a relative stranger, then it will have served a noble purpose.

:tpd:

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I will admit that I feel your loss. Not only of someone you thought was a friend, but also of the large monetary loss. Banning Dan was not a decision that came easily for us nor did it happen without much thought & discussion.
When we notice that he is active on places like Facebook, yet fails to respond to not only other members PM's & emails, but to also ignore admin sent PM's & emails, it gives us little choice. His ban here we felt, would have no impact on whether he would honor any and all outstanding debts or not. He has had many chances to right the wrongs. Playing a blind eye is not the right way.

As part of the decision making in his banning, I wish to apologize to anyone who was taken by Dan, whether it was for 6 dollars or 600. We try to look out for folks, but it is something that we just cant do 100% effectively. We do however try to the best of our ability.

If anyone wishes to, email or PM any admin and we can get any message to him if he chooses to read it.

Kelly

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I for one was in a GB with Dan, abiet a small one compared to Shawn and others who will remain nameless and are out $$$$. IMHO, Dan burnt his bridges here...hopefully he will make good on all the gb's.
I don't hold anyone here, including the Mods as responsible as yes it is the old addage, buyer beware. Well....we have seen his true colours now, and now we all have to live and learn. Shawn and others who are affected, take solice in knowing what comes around goes around. :2

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Shawn,
I feel your pain. He is not to be named kept sending me invites to his group buys as well. I've met him and he is an a$$. I'm not here to bash him but ever since he tried selling me some cigars that I knew he got on sale for a price that was the full asking price when not on sale I cut my ties to him. I even took him off my buddy list. Since I am an LEO this whole cluster is definitely a fraud. I don't want to see him locked up but he should make right his wrongs and be done with it. :2

Not to mention him posting D/C #s to passes, MAW and others only not having them sent for a month! If you can't get stuff out in a week max then don't get involved.:fl

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I really feel for you, Shawn and others that got nailed on this. I was emailed months ago about these GB's by Dan and something just seemed strange. I chose not to get in on the GB's and I guess it's a blessing I didn't bite.
I honestly didn't see this coming. He was a proven member of our little community on CS/CA and I'm really shocked. I, like, M.J. considered him a stand up fella and someone I called a friend. I'm very angry about this!! I just keep thinking about the problems he was having and how much advise I gave.
I guess you really never know someone, but to me, a man's word is worth more than anything else. You say you'll do something you damn well better do it no matter how minuscule the task may be. I just hope he makes it right (somehow). Even though many of us haven't met in person I consider many on here "REAL" friends. You can't get much lower than stealing from friends, and that's what it appears he has done.

You said what had to be said in a very respectful manner, Shawn. I would of been a bit more surly. You're an honest and generous person, as many here in the Asylum are, and this just saddens me. What comes around goes around, he'll get his.
That's all I have to say.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I think this whole situation underscores the need for all of us to leave relevant trader feedback. I know I'm one of those "benefit of the doubt" people who will bend over backwards to be understanding and see the other side in a transaction. I don't think I've ever left negative trader feedback even though I've been in a few problem transactions. In the end, my unwillingness to act is a detriment to the community at large.

I forget sometimes that I truly know very few of you. We interact on the board and we call each other "friends," but that's easy in a vacuum. You post. I respond. We banter. Meanwhile neither of us truly KNOWS the other. Obviously there are a handful of guys here that I do know well because I've met them, hung with them and developd a real relationship with them. But for the vast majority, we're nothing more than posts on a web page to each other. However, I think nothing of it when someone says, "bro, you down for a split of XYZ sticks?" Off goes my check or PP pmt. 99% of the time it works out just fine because I'd like to think that 99% of the members here are legit. But we still need to be careful. And we have to do a better job of taking care of each other by utilizing the trader feedback system for something more than gratuitous platitude system it currently is.

How many guys would have gotten involved with Dan if he had 3 or 4 negative trader ratings? That's on us guys. Everyone of us who got burned by Dan -- and I'm in that group -- left the rest of the board open to more predatory behavior because we didn't want to be seen as the bad guy who left a negative rating. We wanted to believe that scumbags don't exist on the board, and in doing so we failed those who came after us.

The next time I'm involved in a pass, a trade or a GB where someone goes AWOL or doesn't live up to their end of the bargain or misses a deadline without clear and prompt communication, I'm leaving negative feedback. And I will do so out of respect for the others on this board.

That doesn't mean I'm going to go red dot happy. Case in point, in my mind, as to how it should be done. Moe & Fred recently ran a group buy that ran into a couple situations where things got delayed. But I was never, ever in doubt that things would be resolved because of the wonderful job they did communicating with the board, explaining the circumstances and outlining next steps. They get kudos & props for the way they handled that GB.

But make no mistake. There ARE other Dan's out there. And shame on us if we don't alert the rest of the board to problem transactions going forward.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

If this was across state lines its a federal offense, especially since he used USPS to commit fraud.

$652 is alot of change to just throw your hands up and forget about... Contact your local police and see if they can help.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Well said, Vin. :tu

Sorry for your trouble, Shawn. :(

Knock on wood, but so far, I've had no issues that a few pm's haven't resolved, but I have no doubt with enough transactions, some are not going to go as one would hope. Honest, unbiased feedback will help alert others.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Hate to see this happen to anyone. Can't say I didn't see something like this happening sooner or later. Piss poor communication and always out to get something out of a deal for himself would catch up to him eventually. Guess I gave him the benefit of the doubt since I knew him and herfed with him many times. It saddens me that anyone can be this low of a person.

Anyone up for a surprise herf at his new house:bx:fl:r:r

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I am one of the people that Dan has screwed over. I received a PM stating that he was going to ship my cigars and then he didn't. Stay classy Dan. :hm

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Woof.
This is just bad.
$650 is not something to be taken lightly. $20, $40 we can all live with that.
This is above and beyond bad.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

It bothers me deeply Shawn that you had to experience this. Makes me hang my head.....

In all your personal trouble, thank you for taking the time to inform us.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

sorry to hear about that man i also know how its feels to be ripped off by a guy u thought was a good botl and a mate it was NOT dan that ripped me off tho

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Remember guys, a members trade status is only as good as his last trade. Previous feedback is not really relevant.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Surprising enough, I gave Dan neg trader ratings and he PM'ed me offering to send me replacement sticks and "make things right" between us. I told him that I understood that he was having a rough time and that it was unneccesary for him to send more sticks. I thought this was an attempt by him to do the right thing with everyone or at least apologize. Shawn, so sorry to hear this, I would take some action though even if it is informing the authorities in his local area. That's a good amount of money right there.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I understand the logic of what you're saying, Kelly, but I have to disagree a bit. If we're truly only as good as our last trade, then why not configure the system to only show the last trader feedback? In my mind, the feedback system COULD be useful to gauge a members overall ability to follow through on his commitments to other members. If nothing else, it shows a pattern. Should that pattern be strewn with negative feedback, I would think it would cause some people to think twice about dealing with the person -- or at the very least, take the necessary precautions; having the other guy ship first, for instance. But if I get dicked over by someone and fail to leave trader feedback, I basically give the offending member a pass to do it again to someone else.

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

The system isn't foolproof, but it's all we've got. And it can be very useful, IMHO, but only if we use it in the manner it was intended.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Not only was it across state lines, but country borders. This has gone Galactic. Notify the Federation.

Thanks for the post Shawn. Nice to see facts.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

:tpd: i've had several transactions with a botl here, i never had any problems, he was great to deal with, i didn't know that he had some issues with a buddy of mine on the forum that was now being handled by the 11, think you eventually kept him out of wts threads, maybe if you get dinged you should be kept out of wts for a certain time, but it goes back to you have to be honest with feedback

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I'm not sure what you bought from him, but this is not any different than a situation that a friend of mine recently went through with a Supercharger purchase for his son's car at a loss of just over $1000 bucks. This is considered internet fraud and if wanted, you could press charges against him... assuming you have his legit contact information. I can talk to my friend that just went through all of this and PM you the process he went through when he went through and pressed charges against the guy for the supercharger if you want. Lemme know.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I understand your point and agree Vin. I guess what I was referring to was that folks can change at any time. Life shows up and if a persons desperate enough, theres no saying what a person would or wouldn't do. A sad fact of life is that sometimes good folks go bad.

Also...
Those who have been on cigar forums for any length of time have probably already witnessed "the set-up artist". You know, a guy joins a board not unlike this one. He follows all the rules. He establishes himself as a stand up good guy. He sets up trades for good or hard to find cigars. He organizes or participates in group buys. He bombs a few key individuals. He puts not only the time in, but also spends some cash as well. He looks like 200 other great folks to the outside online world.
The problem is, its all a set up. He has placed himself exactly where he wants and planned to be. Many well respected members consider him a stand up guy. Even though the new members dont know him personally, they see other obviously well respected members do appear to know him. His audience is quite large at this point.

He has great trader references. He's been around for a while. He's actually met a few folks.
Then he lists group buys. He lists box splits he organized. He might list multiple boxes of expensive hard to find or highly desirable cigars for sale. Possibly even at multiple forums.



....and once he has your money....





...."poof". Like magic, he disappears. Just like that.


Im not saying thats Dan, but it has happened in the past by some and will be tried again by others.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I disagree with your disagreement, Vin. (Sounds a little like John Cleese, huh?) :r

Dan's "established pattern" suggested otherwise as well.....50 positives and not a single negative. Not until that first negative appeared would anyone who had not dealt with Dan on these last trades/splits have a clue he had become untrustworthy. JHMO.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Heres a short list of folks who have in the past took advantage of communities like ours. Keep in mind the list goes back quite a ways.

http://www.vitolas.net/wiki/scumbags/list

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I would like to see his user-name still listed with an explanation of why he was banned. Maybe banned inmates go to the top of the Inmate List like the old Ten Most Wanted. This might help others who might interact with him on other boards and not know his history. :2 (I'm sure the 11 have a valid reason for removing him I just don't know what that is. :))

Thank you for posting your facts Shawn. Seems Hardcz's actions (or lack of) has told his side of the story and now we have yours. Only one of many from what understand. It's nice to have the ability to see both sides of an issue when making a judgement on ones integrity.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

That is not an option. It is embedded withinn the vBulletin software that banned use3rs are removed from the members list. He was not consciously removed from the list.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Thank you sir.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

For those who were taken by Dan, you can leave feedback here: (I think)

http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/itrader.php?u=225


Please dont leave feedback unless you were actually involved.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Shawn, I am sorry & outraged for all the trouble Hardcz has caused to you and other stand-up members on this board.

Like others, I have previously been reluctant to leave negative feedback. Earlier this spring, Dan & I were in a sticks-for-sticks trade that never really happened--I sent him my end of some pretty choice smokes, and despite his numerous PMs promising to "get something out right away," nothing ever materialized. I took his previous good-standing at face value and I chalked it up to "sh*t happens," and just moved on. Besides, I didn't want to be the first person to tarnish his trader reputation.

Hindsight being what it is, I wish I had used the system the way it was designed and left negative feedback. Not sure if it would have prevented any of this, but it might have raised some questions. I apologize for my omission, and commit that it won't happen again. Deals gone bad will get negative feedback.

This event and Poker's post about scammers is a perfect example of why we should use the system the way it was intended.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

You could always add a new usergroup called "banned" or "kicked out" or whatever you wanna name it, give it access to nothing, and that way it would still show up in the members list.

You could also install the Miserable Users addon and put him in that usergroup :r

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Wow. Sorry to hear about this.
Sometimes my wife and I watch the news and wonder how people can do the things they do.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

In response to those recommending some criminal legal action be taken in this matter, I'd just like to remind you all that cigar communities are most comfortable flying under the radar, so to speak. It shouldn't take too much thought on the subject to figure out why this would be the case.

I don't think most here would care to have their pms and posts subpoenaed as part of an investigation. People like their privacy, degree of anonymity, and any scrutiny would be detrimental.

Of course, I don't think that SilverFox would want things to go to that level, I just felt it prudent to be clear on the above points.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

A shame and very sad. Alas, there is not much that can be done about this except after the fact- as is so often the case with crime. Thanks very much for your tempered and clear post, Shawn! I do agree that you could follow through on this- mail fraud is one option.

What is pleasing is that this is very much the exception in this fratenity and the outrage such behavior engenders.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

:tpd: I have enough headaches right now. :D

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

FYI: Even banned members are now visible in the memberlist

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

:tpd: :mad: at myself

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I like his new avatar. :D

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I stand (sit) corrected.

Sorry, Al.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

No problem here. :)

And if you sort by rep it puts the banned guys on the last page. :tu

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I'm sorry to hear that some of you got scammed. I participated in the coaster bomb for Dan a while back and he seemed like a decent guy. Just remember that according to the Hindu belief of karma, he'll probably come back as a tobacco beetle in his next life.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I'm really truly sorry to hear about this. Makes me sick, actually. We come to this board to learn, make friends and lifelong bonds over a common intrest that brings us together in the first place. Just like my craigslist scam thread, yes, we know scammers are out there and it's very unfortunate if some get through to us here on CA but it's certainly easy to feel a false sense of security when you're surrounded by such good people as we are here on CA.

I'm on the internet fraud bandwagon...privacy issues aside (even though I understand them), I do think you guys should take legal action against Dan (who I had also called a friend) and anybody else who steals from you. And that is exactly what he has done.

That, or, hey, how many of you guys have his address from bombs & trades huh? Michigan, right?.....anyone want to form a militia? (I'm certainly not suggesting this; I think the legal route is the way to go....hey, somebody's got to have his address to put on the report...).

Hey Kelly - I don't see kumarusc on there...what's up with that?

Again, guys, it pains me to hear about this. As far as I'm concerned, you attack a friend, you should expect the wrath from all of us. Even though I'm kind of a wimp, I can still write words that hurt so Shawn, Vin, M.J., Dave, elderboy, we got your back.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I didnt make the list.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

;)

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Lookie here....I also have his phone number....if any of you would like it, I'd be happy to give it up. You know, for the fraud report.....or to order a pizza.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I understand how you feel but please read what was posted not too long ago.