stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Had this discussion on some other forums. When I had it on Cbid forum all hell broke loose. So I'll start with some disclaimers

1. I order internet cigars. I will not stop.

2. I do not think internet cigars are bad.

3. I understand that all the big internet guys also have b&m. I'll still refer to them as internet stores. They are different.

4. I understand that many of you think of a smoke shop as a b&m. Its not. The typical smoke shop with a small humidor is not the same as a b&m that actually deals with rocky and nestor and nick. These are smoke shops for the sake of this discussion.

Ok. Here is the basic premise. A B&M has superior cigars to internet.

Definition of terms.

Internet shop: this is the big guys. CI, famous etc.

Smoke shop: see above.

Local B&M: a store dedicated to tobacco and most likely an emphasis on cigars. Deals with makers of cigars and not just distributors.

Reason for discussion: I've noticed that the cigars are very good at the lounge I go to. Usually better than the ones I get myself from internet.

Supporting statements:
1. Side by side tests. I've taken a number of internet cigars into my lounge and bought the same cigar there and smoked them side by side. Even had a few botl try it too and we all thought the local one was better. Even in blind tests.

2. Botl had gone to Honduras and Dominican republic and reported that locals(workers at the factories) had stated that inferior tobacco and piles left laying around in the factory were for internet cigars.

3. Just conjecture here but I think to myself as a businessman. First the big guys want these incredible discounts. Need to use surplus and extra tobacco. Second I know that the small guy is aware of everything that comes into his shop. Whereas the big guy. Not so much. I know that in my business the guy who makes 2 orders a month will probably call me about both. On the other hand the company that orders 100 one of his employees may call every 3 months or so.

Possible other explinations:
1. Time. The local may not sell as fast and therfore the sticks get to age. I don't agree with this because I've gotten them right as my local gas received them. But the point has some merit. Plausible.
2. Storage conditions. Big guys use a warehouse. Local a more closely watched environment. Again reason above makes me think not so but again. Plausible.

Final thoughts: again just my opinion and I will still order and smoke internet cigars. But I think the makers know who their clients are and will give superior product to the local guys. It helps keep them in business when they can't compete price wise and reduces complaints. Try a side by side testing and support you local as much as your budget allows.

Ok fire off!!

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I don't understand your supporting statements since there's isn't a whole lot of support.

1. Were they all blind test? How many did you smoke? How many did you have other people try? This is pretty subjective too...

2. I would love to see someone saying this, or a manufacturing commenting on this. I couldn't find anything to support this either.

3. I can't say I agree with what you are saying. The big guys get incredible discounts because they buy in such large quantities. The supplier is willing to make less margin on each cigar if they can sell ten times that amount. This may or may not effect the tabacoo, but being such a big distributor, if you are out of one cigar, you have 50 others that you can sell in its place. I can't see how a big guy could not be aware of what they are getting either. It's not like they are only employing 2 people, and being such a big distributor, there probably is a customer service and quality control department.

I have tried side by side comparisons, and it rarely ever works out since almost every single B&M I've gone to keeps their cigars at 70RH and its much too wet. When I take them home though and compare, I personally don't see a difference. Cigar wise, I think it would be hard pressed to show impericle evidence that B&M cigars are better than online retailers simply because so much about cigars are all subjective. What probably plays the most important factor is how a B&M stores their cigars. I've seen some that are just terrible, and others very well maintained.

Honestly, a cigar is just a cigar. What makes a good cigar better is perception and mood. Take for example tea; I love tea. Tea's great, and I've got a lot of different brands, variety, and even aged tea. But, the best tea is tea with good friends and company, and even the highest grade tea taste terrible when one is in a foul mood.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I started considering this... then my head started hurting!! All I know is I like most of the sticks I get online and I like most of the sticks I buy at a B&M.

The sticks I enjoy the most are the ones from friends or that I enjoy with friends.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I agree with Gator :ss

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

First statement. I couldn't give you an exact number of tests or guys. We do it a lot. Its kind of a game at our lounge. A guy will bring in 4 or 5 sticks. The botl will buy the same and we will test. Sometimes blind sometimes not. The most telling thing is 100% say the local is better. It never fails. This is absolutely subjective but telling none the less.

Your last statement I completely agree with. My best smokes have been on dates with my wife when we are really enjoying each other.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I don't really buy the "Internet and B+M cigars are actually different cigars to save money" argument. Although your "experiments" with the two different types are interesting, I think they are nothing more than a bias. The only way to truly tell if your "experiments" can be taken as conclusive would be to take one of each, place them in the same storage conditions for an extended period of time and then smoke them each blind with no prior knowledge of knowing one was from the internet and one was from a B+M. Without actual evidence for the "different cigar" theory, I don't think there is any argument that can be made claiming this.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

You see Brent, even though we don't agree on football we can agree on other things.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Do you really think that cigar manufacturers make varying quality cigars for B&Ms vs internet retailers? I just don't think that's possible. I do think that long-term storage can be a problem at some of the internet retailers. Many tend to keep cigars at higher humidity levels so they can ship better. If cigars are kept at over 70% humidity for long periods of time, I can see some chemical changes happening that could cause problems. I've also been at some B&M's with serious humidity issues. I just don't buy the fact that B&M's are getting "better" cigars.

MCS

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Depends on your B&M and even the stores he owns/runs.
My B&M has 3 or 4 locations, and at one of them the
employees have NO CLUE about running a humidifier.

At another location we sometimes smoke inside the
walk-in, particularly if there is an event. IMHO this
doesn't help the open box stock.

I've been to both CI stores. The downtown location
is very small with a somewhat limited selection. The
new Superstore is modern with a nice lounge in the back
and a very good selection. The cigars I bought were OK.
And their mail order smokes are quite serviceable.

I also go to Holts several times each year. They know
how to treat cigars.

I've got dry cigars from the big guys and my local B&M.
If I let them recover in my humi, they will be good,
except for the one local location with poor humi habits.

I never worry about smokes from Holts. In fact they
might be a bit moist for some, but I smoke at least one
right there on every trip and never had a bad one.
Once I get them home and in my humi they remain in
top condition.

I think it's a matter of knowing how to deal with what
you get, rather than how they were kept at the store.
If you buy from a store and they consistently sell you
dry smokes, just let them recover(if possible) in your
humi, or find another store.

Many mail order smokes seem to be over humidified before
shipping, IMHO. This lets them dry out, a bit, while in transit.
Nothing wrong with that, except that OTT they might plug
a bit more.

Some people/brands prefer slightly drier smokes. To me they
burn a bit hot, but that's a personal preference.

YMMV

Chemyst :cool2:

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Absolutely agree with the above. Blind is the only way to go, any other side by side comparison is "prejudiced" from the start whether one admits to it or not.

I also seriously doubt manufacturers produce 2 separate batches, one for B&M and another for internet. One never knows where the cigars will end eventually plus it would take MORE, man power wise, to produce separate batches, store separately, etc. As a manufacturer (not cigars, though) I can simply say this is BS and a myth form many points of view as it would only increase the cost of production of BOTH batches.

That said, I can't even begin to fathom why anyone would even come up with this theory/myth unless whoever started this BS asked one question without delving into follow up questions such as, "So, this tobacco is used for bundled seconds?" And a few more, just to see if factory workers are simply playing with you (which I could see as they are bored out of their minds on a hot day and need to poke fun at a turista).

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I agree there could be logistical issues. Really the whole thing came up from some of my botl going to the factories and hearing what the workers said. I'll be going to Nicaragua myself in may to see.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

100% agreed.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

To me, many of the B&Ms I've encountered seem to have employees that are pompous. I guess maybe I haven't found a good place to visit on a regular basis, but from what I can tell, I'd rather visit a C&M because their prices are typically better anyways. Thanks Internet.;)

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I talked about this with my local B&M owner. He deals with companies directly when possible, but there is always Ataldis and other major companies that only deal through their distributors.

That being said, he keeps a good variety of sticks in his humidor, and is constanly changing what he orders, based on what his customers are looking for. For instance, he only keeps a few different Gurkhas because they don't move well. And being a smaller shop (not one of the big chains locally), he can't afford to place orders for a few thousand $ of sticks if they are going to sit on his shelves and not sell.

I always buy a couple of sticks when I go in, but I also bring sticks in that I have been gifted or bought online. He dislikes the online stores, not so much because they can beat his prices, but because he says you can't ever be sure how the cigars have been stored in their warehouse.

Bottom line is that I go there for the fellowship of the other cigar smokers who come in and are regulars. There is something about smoking in the company of others, as was mentioned above! :tu





:dance:

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

i have been inside the cigars international climate controled warehouse... aka humidor. dam it is very high tech and constantly monitored to optimal conditions.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I live in PA, and for the most part, with just a few exceptions, my local B&M's have very reasonable prices. I live about an hour from CI, and although I don't really consider them my B&M; I don't have any problems ordering from them.

That said, I will always give preference to the local B&M. They have smoking lounges and put up with and lobby against smoking laws, and they need support. I can always find something to buy at a B&M.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I agree with him %100.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

This is why placebos sometimes work. The power of suggestion is a powerful drug, but it often brings an unwelcome bias when searching for "truth".

Big, cold, unattentive, warehouse cyber store.

or

Small, warm, personable, boutique-like cigar shop.

The cards are kind of stacked in the favor of the B&M when your data is pulled from a polling group of B&M regulars.

To get true data, I'm with the other guys above. You'd have to do a blind tasting, using unbiased cigar smokers without affiliations, and product stored/treated in the exact same conditions for a pre-disposed amount of time. AND not tell the smokers what they should be looking for and let them figure it out themselves.

Conspiracy theorys are fun. It just seems like an awful lot of work for ALL cigar manufacturers to follow up on when in fact, the secrets between each company could fill the grand canyon.

But hey, I also think my mom's fried chicken is the best in the world too. :D

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

There aint a B&M within a 7 hour drive of me ....So ..........
JR & FSS Internet Big guy's here I come!

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Wow! Strong opinion. Very sure. Wasn't there.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

No difference, guaranteed. Any difference you think you detect in your non blind test may more likely be due to your shops cigars being 6 months older than internet cigars.

Unless you do the cigar testing double blind with cigars of equivalent age the results are spurious.

Now, I'm sure that you realize that it has been conclusively proven that all cigars that are sold on the internet are made of worms and soaked in wolverine urine. Maybe that is the reason for the difference you detect?

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I buy at both depending on what my needs are. My B&M has their own master roller so the only place I can get his amazing cigars is at the B&M. I have not really noticed any difference in cigars.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I'm in the no difference camp, although I sometimes feel the Joes deals are some sort of seconds as the sticks don't always seem to be up to par with their regular retail counterparts. Like others mentioned, to test this correctly you would need to buy specimens from both retailers and let them sit in your controlled environment for at least a month and than pop the bands off and have others smoke them blindly. You also have to keep in mind to that some retailers sell smokes online that manufacturers go through great lengths to keep them from hitting the online market but the online retailers buy them through a Brick & Morter and in turn put them online so who is to say everything you are getting was meant for online sales only?
Again, as mentioned previously the logistics of having two different smokes for different markets would just be too costly to make it worth their while IMHO.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Agreed. But how do you account for the blind tests? 100% they knew the difference.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I don't beleive that there are two awparate standards of tobacco, one for b&m's and one for internet retailers. I have noticed that I tend to enjoy sticks from b&m's more. I assume this is an aging issue.
Posted via Mobile Device

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

2 points.

1. I am not saying the internet cigars are bad. I am not saying the internet cigars are bad. Just not as good as the locals. With a noticeable difference. Not even saying a significant difference. Just noticeable.

2. Wher is the extra cost is separating box X from box Y. They can separate by brand. Name. Type. Size but not quality too? Why not? Why is that so much more expensive? Take nestor or don pepin. Both make tons of cigars for many different guys. In different sizes. Wrappers etc etc etc. But adding one more variable is gonna break the bank? Hogwash.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

As someone with post-grad work in stats I can tell you that if the sample size is large enough, a number like %100 would make me skeptical of the whole experiment... just from a purely experimental standpoint. You'd have to expect SOME variance in SOME variable.

From a personal standpoint, lately I've found that the sticks I've ordered from Atlantic (Cubao 1's and 5's and DPG blue label torps) have been just as good, if not better than those I've smoked at my B&M.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Agreed. So either

1. I'm lying.

Or

2. The stat Is telling of a noticeable(not significant) difference.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Exactly :D

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

No accusations of lying here. I take your word that the results for the tests you have been present for are what you are saying they are.

I just don't buy it that manufacturers are putting good ( and/or different) tobacco in B&M cigars, and "scraps" in the cigars sold on the internet. I am guessing that a large amount of the cigars go to distributors who supply both B&Ms and Internet retailers. I would bet there are other differences accounting for your results, and also that different groups would likely have different results.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Anyone want to set up a taste challenge? I there is no way it will be as epic as Moki Vs. Fredster but could be interesting.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Hmmmm. Can you give us a recent example with brand/size and the result. What did the tasters say?

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Whoa. Who said anything about scraps? Again. Not saying even significantly better. Just noticeable. And consistant. Again the internet big guys cigars aren't bad. Just not as good as the local.

Recent example. We did ashton VSG wizards. A botl had got a box off cbid. I organized the blind taste with 4 others and I knew which was which. Another time it was RP vintages 92 torpedo that time someone else was the non blind and it was 3 of us. We've done a bunch of others.

I think an asylum testing would be fun. Let's agree on a stick. I'll pay for it. Ship to 6 guys. 2 who think its bull. 2 who agree with me and 2 who think it could be either way. You have to smoke them side by side and I'll remove the original wrapper and put on a number.

Heck wait a minute. I won't dictate the rules. What do you think?

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I think you are full of beans. But you can have your beans any way that you want. I am OK with that. Age of the sticks would be the variable that makes a difference here. Your Mileage May Vary.


No test needed for me, I just smoke em and try not to overthink it too much. I have the palate of a goat, and the attitude to match.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

The results of the test would not be statistically valid - way too small of a sample size. That being said, right or wrong, you can still convince people with statistically invalid test results.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

:tpd:
They are just cigars, smoke'em up yum..!!

Is the bottle of wine enjoyed by the glass at the resturant better than the same bottle at home???

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Relax Legend, I think you need a smoke. We are giving you our thoughts and opinions, and obviously most of us disagree with you. Take it with a grain of salt because in the end, if you believe it, there's nothing we can say to persuade you.

After taking a moment to think about this, I don't believe a B&M has superior cigars to internet retailers. It comes down to business, and it is completely different than your third point you made. Cigar manufacters are a business, pure and simple; they make money. Pepping is a hardy fellow that gives you a 3 pack of Tat Blacks when you purchase a box, but ever wonder why some Tat's are so expensive? They are rolled in Miami, and compared to Nicaragua, the cost of employing those rollers is very high. Why doesn't Peppin eat the cost? Because he's a businessman. While love and talent of ones work is important in creating a create cigar line, making money is why they are in business.

I think most cigar manufacter's realize now that the internet could be the next big thing in the industry, if not already. B&M's, my guess, probably sell less cigars than internet retailers, and I think most of us here can understand why; money, money, money. CI sells a box of NC Oliva V Lancero for $140, my local B&M sells them for $12 each. I cannot think of a single B&M (excluding those that sell online) that can beat online retailers simply because they get a better price. If you are a manufacter, why in the world would you send inferior product to your largest market base, and send your best product to a smaller market base? It doesn't.

I would like to know Rob at Taboo on his thoughts on this. He owns a B&M, and sells online. While he isn't a big guy like CI, he might ship a lot more than any local B&M can because he can advertise on forums, gives great discounts and prices, and is well known for his customer service. I'm fairly certain that he would say there really is no difference.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I've never had a problem with an internet vendor.. any sticks that arrive in poor condition, I've always been able to get a refund.. For example, I got a box of Tat VI Angeles from CI, 5 sticks came with split foots. One e-mail later, my credit card was refunded by 5 sticks..

B&Ms vary.. the one down the street from me is horrible and I will NEVER ever go back..

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

In reality even though the big internet hit may sell 100 times the volume of one local. The fact is there are thousands of locals. And keeping them in business is very important to the industry. This is why rocky and nick perdomo show up at my local lounge.

Again I'm not talking about a vastly inferior product. Same tobacco. Just not the best. Giving them a small edge will keep them open and ordering. The average internet ordering guy is happy to get his smokes cheaper and with the same placebo effect mentioned above thinks there is no difference. I don't know how many guys I've heard or read about getting seconds and saying they are just as good. Do a side by side. Most are not even close.


I'm aware its an unprovable arguement for both sides. But I think its a fun debate and would be cool to do amongst the inmates.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Wow Shawn if this is true I need your number and will meet you at Zarkas one day this week.

Very intersting but hard to believe.:2

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Legend, i'd be interested in participating in that little experiment of yours.
Although i find it hard to believe that b&m's have better sticks than online retailers, i would be interested in doing a side by side comparison and judging from their.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Here is the statistical table for a 2 tailed paired forced choice preference test, which is what you are planning if you give 2 different cigars to people and ask which they prefer (and don't take no preference as an answer).

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/okeefes/2tailPP2.jpg

As you can see, it is not vaid to run the experiment with 6 of fewer observations and that you need more than 8 observations so you don't require 100% agreement. We never run these tests with less than 72 observations if the data are important. But for the sake of argument, if you have 25 observations (i.e., 25 different people smoked the cigars and gave you their preference), 18 of them would have to prefer one of the 2 smokes for the difference to be significant at the 5% level.

And you would need to run the experiment using a number of different comparisons.

I did something similar when I ran an accelerated aging experiment several years ago. I asked people to smoke the cigars side by side, and compare them as the burned down. I did learn that you need to find people who are motivated and who have palates that you can trust.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I'll take that action. I'll argue that a Padron 1926 and Opus X will taste identical whether from a B&M or Internet retailer... :r

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Oh you greedy bastid

He he he he

I was thinking maybe some rocky OWR. Or perdomo Habano.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Speaking of RP, I have had the Vintage 90 in the same vitola from my local B&M (not a large shop by any means), and CI. Just a noob's opinion here, but I didn't notice any difference.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Apologies, you did not use the word "scraps". You said "piles (of tobacco) left laying around the factory". :D

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I don't know why... but this thread really bothers me. It bothered me at the old site and it has taken pretty much the same course here.

Even if you were "testing" the exact same vitola of the same marca there are too many other variables involved to make any statements as to the differences based on internet versus B&M sources.

You guys have fun with it if you so choose.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Agreed 100%.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

You know, the idea of sitting around with some buddies and doing a B&M vs internet herf seems fun. Not because it would have any statistical significance (I deal with surveys and statistical data for a living, and the amount of care that you'd need to take in designing a proper study is enormous), but because it would just be fun.

I'm actually curious about the premise: doesn't it make more sense for manufacturers to send their better product to their biggest and most powerful customers (the internet retailers) rather than the highly dispersed local B&Ms?

Please understand that I'm not disparaging B&Ms -- many of the proprietors are enormously knowledgeable and very influential in customers' purchasing decisions. But they probably sell only a fraction of the volume of the big internet outlets. I'd think that if the internet outlets were getting lower quality stuff, they could throw their weight around a lot more.

Just a question . . .

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I'll take that action.