Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

My cigars are (in boxes) in 4 coolidors stacked on top of each other / next to each other. I generally I check on them about once a week to make sure humidity is in the right ballpark (I use beads).
A friend came over and wanted to try some which were on the bottom of one of the cooler. I noticed some dust on the bottom of the cooler, opend the box (punch punch btw) and the entire box had pretty much turned into dust with lots of dead beetles in it.
Quite a shock.
I checked every cigar in every box in the coolidor with the problem and there were only a couple of cigars with holes.
I then started checking the other coolidors and I actually saw some beetles running around on the inside of them. There was one box (monte #2) with a couple of cigars with holes, and some beetles running around..
Long story short, both the montes as well as the punch came from the same vendor (in the same shipment) and I do not freeze cigars - never had a problem until now.
Now I am in the process of freezing every box (after closely inspecting them of course) for between 12 and 24 hours and moving them to a clean coolidors (washed out with with bleach just because I'm paranoid).
What is interesting is that I found beetles in coolidors which did not have cigars from the suspected shipment, and because I saw some running around on the walls of the cooler I suspect that they can actually move from cooler to cooler looking for dinner.
Beetles are very easy to crush. they are not like cockroaches that you can't kill. (more info you don't want to know..)
Several lessons learned:

-Freeze all new additions to the collection
-Check cigars fairly frequently - an argument for rotatating them. The Montes with beetles seemed ok when looking at the first layer. The bottom layer was the one with the infested cigars. Simply opening a box and looking at the top layer is not thorough enough. One way to see if you have a problem is to tilt the box in question and tap it to see if dust comes out. Obviously don't do this over your cigar collection, but over a light surface so you can see what the debris consists of......little pieces of tobacco are normal but dust is not. Once you see the difference in the kinds of debris (and I hope you BOTLs never will) it is very obvious.
-don't keep all your cigars in one location as beetles can move around more than expected.

I have a problem with temperatures. Generally my cigars are stored at 60-65% humidity and about 70-74 degrees. Too warm. I know it and/but there is not much I can do about it. I don't have the space for a vinotemp and trying to keep the temperature down by adding icepacks is a nice theory but to do that 24/7 for years on end for 4-5 coolidors is unrealistic.

One of the positive side effects is that I had a cigar from a box which used to be on the bottom (a Partagas 2004 EL) which I had not had in many years. It was a whole lot better and integrated than when I got that box a couple of years ago.
I hope you guys can avoid some of the mistakes I've made.

WeekendSmoker
edit: in the boxes which had been severely infected the beetles seemed to have a preference for the darkest, oiliest cigars. Perhaps a coicidence, perhaps not. Just and observation (though on a small number of datapoints....)

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

When freezing boxes, SLB's, I just realized that I forgot about the insulating factor of the wheel. I usually freeze all cigars for 7 days, do you think this is long enough to kill the little buggers? The freezer is an upright freezer around 3 - 5 degrees fahrenheit.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I think that is more than enough. I only freeze mine for 48 hours and that includes 50 Cabs. More is good and not going to hurt anything in my opinion.

This is of course only opinion, you would need a temperature probe to know for sure.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Thanks Fox ! ! !

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Fox -

Freezer bags.

Luxury or necessity?

Plz advise.

Thanks!

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Boxes I use plain ole costco food wrap in multiple layers.

I use freezer bags for singles.

Not using anything would cause a lot of moisture loss I would think, maybe not in that short of a time but I certainly wouldn't want to expose my sticks to more moisture loss than necessary.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Follow up question -- sometimes I get singles in 5-finger bags. Good enough for freezing or should I through the whole thing in a freezer bag?

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

If they are the ones from Wayners GB then you are good, they are a good thick poly.

In all you are probably ok but some of the 5 fingers I have had over time where pretty porous.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Heavy duty Freezer bags, and just keep it on the side and re-use it.. That's what I do, and NOTHING that comes in don't see Freezer time period!... It's the only way new arrivals see my humidor..

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I have another question.

Lets say someone ordered some cigars and forgot about them coming and went on vacation. They come back home only to find that their cigars were in the mail box for a week in 90 deg heat.

Will this trigger beetles even though the cigars were frozen before all this happened?

Thanks to anyone that can help.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

They can only hatch if there is viable eggs. If they were frozen properly before shipping and were not infested after freezing, then they should be fine. I would keep them separate from my other sticks to see if anything hatches....or you can always freeze to be on the safe side.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

What would it hurt to send them to the freezer a couple days?

Why take the chance.?!?:confused:

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Thanks, Kevin.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I just have a n00b question about the bags... we do not currently own a vacuum sealer and are set on which one to get just yet, could I just use Ziploc Freezer bags instead of vacuum sealing or is that a bad idea?

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I use Freezer bags, no problem.. :tu

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Thanks, looks like I'll be hitting the store on the way home.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I just use any old ziploc bag (I've frozen countless cigars in the plain old CI smiley bags and 5-finger bags) Doesn't have to be "freezer rated". They are not going to be in there long enough for the thickness of the bag to really make any difference.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Ok, then I can go with the normal gallon size, I'm doing my whole collection and it'll be easier that way (theyre all loose and the collection is only 50 sticks ;))

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

What does everyone think of liquid nitrogen... that should do the trick right lol i'll bring a pic when i get a chance

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

You kid, but a BOTL once did an experiment on freezing cigars by using dry ice.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

So let me get this straight....My cigarettes contain tar, rat poison and god knows what else.....now my cigars contain Beetles? Man I haven't went to sleep yet but it already feels like someone **** in my cereal.

So let me get this straight....somehow and why are there beetles in cigars?
Do you have to freeze EVERY CIGAR? Like say I buy cigars from a smoke shop....are those fine since they've been in a humidor for god knows how long? Is this only for online purchased cigars? Are beetles already THERE or do they somehow FORM in cigars?

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Tobacco beetles are not as big a problem as they once were in cigars. Most major manufacturers have some sort of control. Many large online retailers have freezing facilities.

If you are buying cigars from your local shop or online and smoking them within a week or two, you shouldnt have problems. But many of us buy boxes(and boxes) and store them for a several months or longer. In this case, to avoid the horror of opening a box six months down the line and finding a bunch of holes in your cigars, freezing will give you a peace of mind.

This is an obsessive hobby, we worry about everything. Rh, temperature, next cigar purchase, storage. The main thing is to relax and enjoy a cigar, sometimes the stress over the little things can interfere with your enjoyment and that should be avoided.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Thanks for the info, you got me scared now and I want to go home and check my humidor lol.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I haven't read all the posts here but as I await a delivery from UPS, something struck me.
You guys are saying that most manufacturers freeze the cigars to kill eggs/larva before they are shipped to the retails.
It seems to me that the delivery to your house may be were the cigars are exposed to high temps, triggering the beetles. Could it be that paying extra for, say a two day delivery, is worth the price? A seven or nine day delivery might mean that your cigs spend as much as a week in a very hot warehouse somewhere.
Just a thought.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Shipping time is mostly irrelevant from domestic sources. If the eggs/larva/beetles are dead, there is nothing to hatch no matter what the temps or delivery time. That is the reason things are frozen. Freezing at home is just a second layer of protection, the only way to get contaminated is from another source, like cigars you receive in trades or bombs. :2

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Bob is wise. :tu

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I always let people know if they receive cigars from me they have already been thru the process of freezing by me.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

The best artial I"ve read on the subject. The pix of ruined cigars is enough to make me cry

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I think that this is more of a maybe than an actual regular occurrence. At least from a CC perspective. I cannot speak to NC's as I don't have or get any.

Bob's comments are mostly right in my mind. It is all the intermediary steps you have to be concerned about. From manufacturer to storage facility to wholesaler to retailer to you and whatever happens in between.

I have friends that as recently as last month have had sticks arrive with live bugs in em.......still give me nightmares.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Thanks

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Thank you for the very detailed walk through!

I got some today with the Pupal stage in them. I'll be stopping to get some nice, big freezer bags today.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

How do you know they have pupae in them? :confused: If these are a recent purchase I would be concerned with the source. In my experience the only way to know if you have an outbreak is to find holes or see actual beetles running around in the box. :2

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I actually learned a little something later on. The white bugs I saw crawling around WEREN'T cigar beetles as I thought =X (they looked just like the picture, in my defense).

I still froze them as a preventative measure, though.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Had a beetle outbreak :( Now, everything goes in the freezer!!!!

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Glad I stumbled on this, My box of Thompson java explorers that I got today are being prepped for freezer the 2 boxes of banditos and bundle of acids that arrive tomorrow will all be prepped and then sanitized wi freezer way and why not. I have a 100 ct Humidor just finishing its seasoned state tomorrow why contaminate a new good thing.
Thank you kindly for the info and all feedback , made a great 10 page info read.
I will also remember this next year when harvesting and aging, etc.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Wow!! Great info. I had no idea. Had heard about these buggers but really had never seen them. Thanks for the info!!

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Awesome post and great read. Of all the posts I've read about freezing cigars, I would say that this is the most informative of em all! Great job! :tu

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Great article. It has scared the crap out of me though. Time to buy some freezer bags...

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Of all the reports written about beetles and what to do, this was by far the best and most informative. Outstanding job! My question is this...since I have a walk-in humidor crammed full of smokes (dont ask how many) and never have frozen one of them, am I too late to start the freezing process. Not only is this a hobby that I love, but, it is worth a lot of $$$ to be destroyed by these little beasties (Padron pic). Any info would be appreciated.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

It's never too late, imo. But it will be tedious for you to do it with that many smokes. A simpler option might be to get the beetle traps that are sold at some places. From what I have read they work like a charm. However, there is still debate on whether these cause the beetles to hatch in order to get to them, instead of staying dormant.

If you have some sort of large freezer (meat locker, etc) then it might not be that tedious to do.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

That is completely illogical... actually, it's impossible. It's not like you or I waking up out of slumber because we smell bacon cooking. In the case of an egg, there simply is nothing there that can smell the pheromone trap because there is no lifeform there, all that exists at that point is the genetic code and proteins etc to begin formation into a lifeform. An egg can't smell and instinctively begin an incubation process that is temperature based.

As for pheromone traps, their use is widely misunderstood. While they are typically used in cigar factories and other tobacco processing facilities, they are not put there to control problems, but rather to give a clear indication of when the factory might have a problem. When a female is caught, the typical proactive reaction is to go forward with the assumption that there are 100 or so eggs out there in some part of the factory and one must handle the situation appropriately.

The last thing you want to be doing is finding beetles in the traps - it means that some more front line control measure is failing.


ylo2na, To be as close to totally safe as can be, your best bet is to buy a trunk freezer. Doesn't have to be a really big one, you can get a $100 one at wal-mart or target etc and freeze in batches, just remember to keep the freeze treated cigars physically isolated from the not-yet-freeze processed stock.

Also, at 64F constant, according to Dr. Debora Trock (CA Academy of Science), Dr. Michael Rust (Professor of Entomology, UC Riverside), all eggs die within 6 weeks. At less than 62F, previously incubated eggs can't hatch. And finally, beetles have to fly to mate, and at temps less than 71.5F, the won't develop wings, ending the chain of lifecycles. BUT, eggs will still incubate, larvae will still hatch and eat, and eat, and eat, and pupate into adults before dying off due to old age, so damage to cigars can still occur at the larval stage.

Is your walk-in humidor air conditioned in such a manner that you can separately control it's temperature? Is it possible and economically feasible to take advantage of the cooler winter months and just chill the walk-in down to 60F for 8 weeks?

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Thanks for the response. I can control the temp with my ac...and, possibly take it down to 60 degrees but have never tried that. Right now, with the cold weather we are having in Tampa, I have shut off my ac and the temps range between 64 to 70. Of course, it is the summer months where I have a difficulty in keeping the temps down to the 70f range, especially in the afternoons. It sometimes reaches 76 to 78 degrees in the afternoon, but, cools down to the 70f range in the evening and overnight. When the temps reach over 74f, that is when I really am concerned about an infestation taking place. As for humidity, I havent felt the pressure when it runs a little higher but, I am still concerned during these times.
I like the idea of purchasing a freezer as the safest step to take. Am wondering if I should leave the sticks in the box and put them in the freezer as is. Putting them in freezer bags without freezing the boxes (in case of eggs or larvae) may be counterproductive. What is your take on this?
Ylo2na

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

If your cigars have gone through a few summers where they spent weeks with daytime temps of 78F and nighttime temps of 70F and nothing has hatched, while of course there are no guarantees, it isn't too much of a stretch to say that it's likely that those cigars don't have have any eggs capable of incubating. Having beetle eggs in all cigars is not a given. They might not be there, and, if they are (were), they might have already been killed by fumigation or shattered by commercial blast freezing by the manufacturer and/or distributor.

Don't worry about trying to control the humidity to keep a handle on beetles since they can hatch and live at RH's far lower than where most, if not all, of us would likely find a cigar smokable (somewhere in the 30-40RH range is their bottom end IIRC).

I leave the cigars in the box after opening to inspect and then just freeze the whole thing after putting it back into it's vacuum seal bag and resealing, a ziplock bag or even a few layers of saran wrap if I can't get the box to fit into anything else. I do leave my cigars in the freezer longer due to the extra material being frozen; I go with a week or so, but that's not just because of the box, it's also because residential freezers cycle rather than maintain a constant low temp, and since it won't hurt the cigars, it's better to be safe than sorry. I don't see any added value in refrigerating before hand either, just straight to the freezer. Gradual cooldown isn't necessary, they survive going from ambient to -30F in minutes in a blast freezer, taking half a day to drop to 10F sure isn't going to hurt them.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Like I said, "there is still debate" about how exactly they do so.

You have a further depth of knowledge about the tobacco industry than me. There have been a good number of B&M's that swear by these (walk-ins) and that is where I make the connection. But B&M's also talk smack about a wide variety of other things too. Have you personally used or experimented with these traps?? I would appreciate your insight.

On the point about temperature, I have certain references ( I will need to be on my work comp to find them) that show beetles flying around at 65 deg. However, that may be the exception and not the rule.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Most B&M's also often swear that the patches of fuzzy stuff found on some of their cigars is plume. :rolleyes:

Take a step back and think about it Wayne, how does a trap that operates by emitting pheromones (sex scents - this is an animals way of biologically saying "I'm ready to mate") to attract beetles of the opposite sex and then capture them, somehow trigger a temperature based incubation in an egg that has no capability of smell or ability to mate even if it could process a pheromone scent? Doesn't happen. Can't happen. Jr High school level biology classes cover this.

I'd say the B&Ms need to look at how they are operating their HVAC systems instead of pointing the finger at impossibilities that they don't seem to understand. Might as well just blame the guy across the street for painting his building whatever color he chose, that makes about as much sense as their trap theories.

I have a little bit of experience with some of the traps, but I don't feel that is really anything special or even necessary for this conversation, I'm not a pest control expert, or research scientist, or biologist (or whatever the field is called where you specialize in insects) . They are simply jumping to illogical conclusions. One shouldn't need any experience to see the disconnect - simply understanding that the traps are pheromone based, and knowing what pheromones are, and that incubation of an egg is a temperature based process and a rudimentary understanding of the beetle's lifecycle is all anyone should need to see how the debate is invalid and an impossible occurrence. Just basic understanding should be sufficient.

Maybe the part about wings was a bit unclear, that wasn't about what temps they can fly at, I'm sure they can fly at 65F. It's that when they undergo chrysalis and pupate into an adult, if the temps are continuously lower during that period, according to that research, they won't develop wings and therefore can't fly and can't mate.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Thank you for the write up on the trap debate.

Maybe I wasn't clear either. The temp of 63 (65 was where they raised it and still found them flying) degrees was kept constant. This was from a report that showed beetles may be evolving with temperature resistance.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Very interesting and worrisome. If you can find the link to that report, I'd very much appreciate it so I can read the report.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Here a link to an article on temperature resistance, however they make you pay for the full article now:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...ournalCode=afs

It was 13C which is roughly 55.5F. There are a couple other ones out of Japan too, and that is the ones I referenced at 63 and 65 degrees, but I'll have to be at work for the links.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Again, thanks for the response. After writing my last response, I quickly sent the ac down to 62 and most hygrometers in there read in the 60-62 range (at last count have 15-20 interspersed throughout the humidor). Since we are having abnormally lower temps the next few days, as suggested, I will leave the door open to the walk-in to utilize the outside 40+ temps anticipated for the next few days. As for RH, I really wasnt too concerned about that.
As an aside, dont sell yourself short on the knowledge you are passing out even though it may be rudimentary, as you explain. You have done a great service to all of us who are concerned about this problem; if nothing else, to get our brains working again to understand the logical, systematic process the beetle goes through in its life span. Now, it is up to us to do the checking, and where necessary, implement the correct methods needed to prolong the "life" of our "leafy" charges.
Best,
Ylo2na

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Thanks.

BTW, I just re-read what I wrote and I see a few things that were written poorly and could be taken incorrectly. I was trying to stress that something didn't require any highly advanced knowledge, and was not trying to point anything bad at you. Apologies if there was any misunderstanding there.

I don't know if leaving the door to the humidor vented to the outside like that is a good idea. You could introduce a new set of problems or other insects.

Welcome glad the info helped out a bit.