Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

About a month or so ago, my wife discovered this:

http://www.klwines.com/images/skus/1039931l.jpg

Vacqueyras Domaine Mas du Bouquet

The 2006 vintage scored a 90 in Wine Spectator last year. She loves it, and at $15/bottle, I love it, too! ;)

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

I'm more of a noob with wine than I ever was with cigars. For a white though, Nobilo Sauvignion Blanc is quite tasty. It's from the Marlborough region of New Zealand.

I can't suggest any reds because most of the ones I drink are too cheap even for this thread, and I highly doubt they are good. I will definitely be using this thread as a reference for stuff to try though.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

I love to find under $10 wines that are good tasting with no bad qualities. I used to get Blackstone Merlot often at Costco.

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Been a number of years since I've drank any wine but i used to love Louis Jadot Beaujolais-Villages for a red, and Adolf Mueller Liebfraumilch for a white.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Here is a new one that family friends tell me is an amazing wine for the price!

Albino Armani Casetta 2005

Sam's Score: 91-93 Points: The aromas found in this wine are a complete turn on: black plums, acai berry, maduro tobacco, bergamot oil and exotic spices. On the palate, the wine coats the mouth with layers of fruit, fragrant earth and spice elements. It tastes like a hypothetical blend of Amarone, Pinot Noir and Mourvedre. A fascinating and delicious wine.

~ Efrain Madrigal, Sam's Wine Director

Sam's First Look Price: $15.99!

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Lance, this past weekend I bought a few bottles of Meridian Pinot Noirm on sale at Safeway for $5.99 each and the wine was not bad at all. Merlot, same price, had way too much oak for me, though.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

And a popular translation for the rest of us:

Black plums - way overripe fruit
Maduro Tobacco - plenty of oak tannins (most likely chips at the price point)
Mourvedre - brett (the only grape that gets confused with brett and since there isn't any in this wine, brett is the only explanation)

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Here is still another find/recommendation:

Bodegas Sabor Real Vinas Centenarias 2005: $13.99
Bodegas Sabor Real Viñas Centenarias
Toro Spain Crianza 2005

Here is Robert Parker's Wine Advocate’s take on the wine:

"The 2005 Vinas Centenarias, as the name implies, comes from vines over 100 years of age. Purple-colored, it offers up a complex perfume of pain grillé, violets, mineral, spice box, black cherry and blackberry. Bigger, richer, and more sweetly-fruited than its younger colleague, it would benefit from 2-3 years of additional cellaring. Balanced, lengthy, and altogether hedonistic, it should drink well through 2015. It is a stupendous value.”
~ 91 Points, Wine Advocate

What will TheRiddick have to say about this one?

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

One of my favorite wines is also one of cheapest..

Tall Horse Cabernet Sauvignon - South Africa .. $6.95

I haven't had anything else from Tall Horse, not a big white fan, and Merlots tend to give me a headache. So I mostly stick with the Cabs.

http://www.tallhorsewines.com//Upload/winebottle1.jpg
Tasting Notes for the 2008

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Johnny, I really hope that the scores Sam's and Parker give out are based on a 110 point scale. If these wines are rated 91 points, then I sure can taste you and Parker on wines that easily rate MUCH higher, by any palate's preferences.

Quit buying points and buy what YOUR palate likes.

Just to show you how much I "rate" Parker's palate. He and I had a few public exchanges where I exposed his obvious lack of understanding simple wine making principles and techniques. All this while he pretended he didn't "recognize" my name (I posted under a real name) and while he didin't realize that just a month prior one of my distributors tasted Parker on my new releases when as soon as the distributor mentioned my name Parker immediately recognized it, the distributor told me that. As soon as I got into an argument with Parker, other winemakers were making bets to see what kind of scores he will release for my wines. Well, he did rate a number of them in the 90-91 range, but then rated my best wine, almost legendary by now in the Pinot Noir community (winemakers and consumers both), a lowly 87 points with a note that said the wine is already on the downslope and won't last past 2 years, basically getting back at me. The wine is now 4 years old and not even close to hitting on all cylinders.

One of my Syrahs was just rated at 91 points, second year in the row for this wine. Vineyard owner (I buy fruit) does a taste test comparison every year to see how wineries do with his grapes and every year, hands down, my wine is voted the best of the bunch by all the wineries. This year, while mine received 91 points, another Syrah from these same grapes, received a 94 point score from same reviewer. The difference? I am not a "famous" name like the one who made the other wine (he makes upper 90s rated Cabs in Napa).

To make it short, points have meaning to only one person, the one who assigns them. And they are assigned for various reasons. Sam's got a good deal on a wine, meaning they commited to XXX number of cases in order to get a much better price and yes, their marketing guy HAS to give it a high rating to move the wine. They, and others as well, don't do this often in order to keep up their "reputations", but I've seen plenty of swill hyped up and sold by the case to consumers who then proudly put a bottle on a table and proclaim, "This is XX points!" But ask them to describe the wine to you, without a cheat sheet, and they are lost with the only thing they do remember being the point score.

In addition, many wineries "dial in" the flavor profile most wine reviewers like (plenty of oak, some sugar and if you want big Parker points then dial in lots of brett) and receive higher scores. Are they good wines? Maybe, but in most cases I would not and could not have more than a sip while I will happily consume 2-3 bottles worth of something that has balance of all components.

I am an industry insider, thus my take on reviews is very different than that of consumers'. Same for tasting a wine, where I immediately pick out all sorts of faults, only a few consumers I have met so far are able to keep up and only because they drink with us for some time and help out at wineries. Otherwise, I can name famous wine critics, people who pretty much any wine consumer knows name wise, who I tasted with and all I can say is that they don't know much about wine, in general.

Buy that Meridian Pinot Noir I posted on above, let me know what you think. It can be had on sale here in CA, I am sure you can find it in NV. Buy any Bogle product, they are all affordable and tasty. Sebastiani. From France buy some (Kermit Lynch imported) Cote du Rhone blends, they are usually cheap and tasty (mostly Grenache and Syrah blends). Buy German Rieslings and Loire whites (Vouvrays), they are all affordable and VERY tasty, but yes, they all lack high scores. Scores do not have a "taste" they are just an arbitrary number.

And best advice I could give in this thread? Avoid any and all "animals" labels like the one above. Not only are they mostly "chemical experiments" produced mostly in a lab, but they destroyed an industry in the past few years. You don't smoke crappy cigars, why drink crappy wines?

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

perrin and fils reserve 2007

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Cotes du Rhone?

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I had the 07 Meridian pinot noir recently (wine is from Italy) and was underwhelmed. I suppose it comes from drinking lots of 82 and 85 Cote du Nuits when I lived in Dijon in 1988, but I haven't had a Pinot Noir this side of the pond that I really enjoyed (and now Italian as well). I will admit that I haven't gone Costa Browne or anything crazy, but I'm not going to spend 50+ bucks just to get a pinot I like. I admit that the reasonably prices pinots from Bourgogne are damned hard to find as well. I used to get the Napa Ridge pinot for 3-3.50 15 years ago at Osco in Illinois (wasn't available in FL) ... that had decent if light pinot character and was a nice deal. In Dijon, I bought a lot of Bourgogne from a small place in Nuits St Georges that was excellent, supposedly just across the fence from higher NSG classification. It was 4.50-5 bucks in 1998 if I remember right.

Since I can get a nice Chianti from one of the superiore areas for 10-14 bucks, I stick with those normally. A nice one I had recently for under 11 bucks. Firm tannins but not dusty/drying, good concentration, nice sang/fruit character, goes well with food. Had the 2007.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/okeefes/B_AGIM3.jpg

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Great thread, thanks.

I like complexity & spiciness in wine and am a big fan of zinfandel. My favorite is Rancho Zabaco's 2004 zin. It's $17.

Their more recent stuff hasn't been as good, however.

http://www.ranchozabaco.com/images/o...oMainImage.jpg

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

C'mon, Greg, you can't put ALL animal labels under one umbrella.

I like wines that get described as having "cherry" and "chocolate" notes and a long finish. "Firm tannins" is a turn off to me. What does this suggest?

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Ohh ohh .. let me guess ......

you buy Boone's Farm by the case?

JK ... everybody has different taste in wine.

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LOL!
I like just enough tannin to know it's there and have it get subdued with age. "Fruit forward" is a way it's sometimes described.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Sean, the Meridian Pinot I am talking about is from CA grapes. Granted, nothing in the Burgundy mold, but for the sake of this thread, a very nicely done wine and at a great price. FWIW, I have yet to come across a sub-$150 red Burg that I like and would actually pay money for, most lack flavor. At the $35-50 price point there is plenty to pick from in CA.

Those Rancho Zabaco Zins are VERY good and sell at good price points.
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Lance,

Name one, just one, "animal" label that is drinkable. I have yet to find one. I'll gladly take a bottle of 2BC over any of them, at least 2BC is real fruit based and clean without any chemical additives.

"Fruit forward" can also mean "structured", its all about balance and if tannin management is done right during wine making you won't notice tannin much while consuming wine. Your take on tannins is similar to mine.
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Taste in wine, as in anything else, IS subjective. I came across a good number of wine drinkers who will loudly proclaim they hate over-oaked wine and then go for the oakiest wine on the table, so taste and perception are also very divergent.

I'd rather drink beer than bad wine, and do so in real life more than I want to admit. As with cigars, I buy quality over quantity and if that means I have only 100+ cigars in the humidor rather than 400, so be it. Life is short to smoke and drink sub-par products, IMO.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Different Strokes for Different folks. What you consider crappy others consider very good.

Call that "animal" label what you want.. Destroyed an industry? To destroy an industry, the industry would have to be no more. The fact that we're having this conversation shows it hasn't destroyed anything.

Most wines (like most beers, like most scotches, like most everything) are grown in the field, then made in a factory and then run through a lab.

For what it's worth.. keep in mind.. just because a label has an animal doesn't make it as you call it an "Animal" label.. Should I not be surprised to see an African wine with a Giraffe on it using typical African art?

The history of the wine and the winemaker

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

You're saying you'd drink 2BC over 2000 Mouton? I would've never thought!

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

I am not sure I understand "... then run through lab" point you made. I know of no one who runs their wines "through lab", I am talking fine wines of course and save for verifying alcohol, acidity and dryness numbers there is no "lab work" involved.

Get some info before making a statement. Talk to Australians themselves, while they were happy with grabbing a big chunk of the USA market when the likes of "Yellow Tail" appeared (and were imitated by everyone else making same, chemical driven plonk that may not even be grapes in some cases), they are now crying because not only did these "chemical experiments" kill the market for locals (USA producers), but also greatly reduced the market for the middle and high end Oz producers as well. So far, Oz imports are down and going down as we speak, people can be fooled some of the time, but not always and consumers are finally waking up.

Fine Syrah market is dead in USA because of the "animal" labels, do some research to see why.

Do you buy and smoke Cremosas? Just curuious.
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Moses, that ram on Mouton is an art form and a one time deal, you know that :-) But yes, I'll take 2BC over ANY "animal label" save that ram on Mouton :-)

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Most of the upscale Aussie syrahs I have had in the last 5-7 years were over ripe, jammy, high alcohol, and unpleasant. Big fruit perhaps, but out of balance and undrinkable after a half a glass. Made to show "big" in a comparison tasting, not to be a nice wine with a meal.

What chemicals are you referring to when you say 'chemical driven plonk'. Sulfur is a chemical. Flavor compounds extracted from oak barrels are chemicals. Wine is nothing but a bunch of chemicals in a glass that can taste good or not, depending more on a person's personal preference than anything. I dislike the super ripe walla walla/HHH wines, but some people really like them. Who is right?

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

That is actually exactly what I was referring to.. hopefully you don't think that I felt all winemakers bring the wine in, and if it's not "up to snuff" they start adding extra chemicals and ingredients to change it somehow.

I have drank Yellow Tail, many people buy it because of it's "budget" cost.. I don't know that I have ever finished a glass outside of just being "courteous" and certainly have never gone back for a 2nd glass.

Tall Horse, at least to me, does not have that same affect. I wouldn't classify a wine bad or gimmicky simply because it has an Animal on the label.

Should I steer away from Grey Goose Vodka? Should I stay away from Glenfiddich because it has an animal on it's label? With all due respect, while the the argument could be made that some wines like Yellowtail are pushing better wines out of the market because sales swing to the cheaper brand, calling all "Animal" brands bad, is just in poor taste. Can't make an assessment without actually trying the brand.

As you said yourself.. "Get some info before making a statement" ... unless you have tried all of those brands, and know exactly the process each one goes from vineyard to shelf, you can't make that kind of blanket statement.

As for Cremosas.. never had one. I typically smoke Padron's (yes, even the Londres and x000 series), Fuente (even a curly head from time to time), Tatuaje, and Pepin. That being said, I'd welcome the opportunity to try a Cremosa before I chalked it up to a crap cigar not worth my time.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Cremosas would be good cigars if not for the fishy taste and smell they leave hanging in the room.
If a cheap wine is not very flavorful, yet not astringent, vinegary or otherwise offensive, I don't care what is on the label. There are only so many brand names you can come up with.

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Now if that's not a glowing review, I don't know what is... :r:r:r

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If the wine label is not a picture of the Chateau or vineyard, it's a gimmick. Wine should reflect the land and chateau in both wine and label. There must be pride and history. Cartoon characters; no way.

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I guess I just can't see past the "the label defines the wine" logic.. ah well...

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Back on focus .... a beaujolais villages that I like for just over 10 bucks is....

http://www.kysela.com/burgundy/Carra_villages.jpg

http://www.kysela.com/burgundy/carra.htm

2007 Manoir du Carra, Beaujolais-Villages, Unfiltered
This 100% Gamay wine is produced from a selection of old vines (70 to 100 years old).

Aged in large oak barrels (foudres) for 3-4 months. No filtration. Egg white fining.

Beautiful purple-rimmed, dark cherry juice color. Explosive nose of intense Gamay fruit, a rich flavorful taste and a clean finish.

Did a side by side this 2007 Villages with George Duboeuf BV and there was no comparison. The Carra had nice very clean Gamay fruit, a lighter style (even for Beaujolais, think Fleurie not Morgon) but nice picnic wine, the Duboeuf showed what happens when you go for quantity over quality. No tannins to speak of, dry enough so it isn't spoiled. Me likey.

Didn't buy a case yet but it is certainly on my list. I see it listed online at 14.99 .... I paid something like 10.35 in Kroger, I wouldn't pay 15 bucks.

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We were talking WINE, right? What are Grey Goose and Glenfiddich?

Cheaper and "bad" are two different things, very much so in this discussion, IMO. Cheaper are the wines I listed above, there is whole bunch. "Bad" are wines I won't buy or even drink if offered for free, I only have one liver and no spares. And yes, being an industry insider, I do try a fair amount of wines, thus I only discuss wines I KNOW personally and well, I know a seriously good number of them whether I like them or not.

On the third point, the info is available, I do read up a fair amount on a daily basis, its MY JOB. I make wine for a living. And when I say these "animal labels" are chemical experiments, they are, just stock up on wine industry periodicals and light up a few cigars while you read up.

I am not here to tell people what to drink, I am simply pointing out that there are affordable wines worth seeking out and drinking. Same way you and I avoid certain cigars and brands, wines are also to be either followed or ignored.

And as I said already, it is strange that people don't bat an eye at spending a nice chunk on good cigars, or Scotch/Cognac/etc, yet "save" by buying inferior wines when much better wines are available at roughly same prices.

Anyway, I see we're talking apples and oranges, if "animal labels" suite your palate, in general terms, no issue here, your liver and your wallet.m I'll go pop a beer now...

Bogle, Sebastiani, J. Lohr, Meridian, Vouvray, German Reisling, CdR, Chilean and Argentine, all can be had in the $5-15 range.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

What did you drink?

Did you have Mt. Langhi Ghiran? d'Arenberg, Parker Station, Torbreck, 3 Rivers, Run Rig, E&E, Cimicky? And what were your impressions?

With Oz Shiraz, you need to pick and choose carefully. That same Mt. Langhi Ghiran needs at least 5-7 years to get going and is a very balanced wine once there. 1995-1997 d'Arenberg Dead Arm are legendary and pretty much killed any and all competition in all blind tastings I have done (WITH FOOD). Cimicky are still undervalued as they were 10-12 years ago (as is Mt. Langhi, IMO).

If you really want to try some small Oz labels there is a shop in SF I can hook you up with, the buyer there knows Oz and NZ wines like no one else in USA and has an incredible selection in the back room. That was my learning grounds years ago :-) Before I worked in wine retail and sold a number of these myself.

In general terms, I won't touch any Oz Shiraz these days that sells under $25 a bottle, sounds elitist, but that's reality if you want anything drinkable.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

I'm drinking a glass of Meridian Pinot Noir right now. It was at Nob Hill for only $5.55.
It is an Italian wine imported through Napa, CA. It tastes like it was made in an Italian style. It is lighter bodied than most of the pinots I'm used to but reminds me of other Italian wines I've had. A winemaker once told my that pinot is a light bodied grape anyway. This Meridian wine has no bad characteristics to me. I think it would be better slightly chilled, even, because it is refreshing already. For $5.55 it is a great deal. It would be better if it had a more concentrated fruit flavor, but I have plenty of wines like that, none that cost less than $15, much less $5.55!

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Ya it's a Rhone wine

had it recently, actually was disapointted. good upfront fruit, but hollow mid-palete and the finish disappeared quickly

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Magnificent Vineyards makes some pretty good affordable wines. Their house wine in delicious and their "steak house" wine (cab sauv) is good as well. Not only are they good, but they don't give me a headache like other cheap wines. (I say that because although my taste buds will accept most cheap wines, they always give me a headache the next day with only one glass).

They are out of washington.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

I just put four varietals of Xploradors on the shelf @ $9.99/bottle - Chardonnay, Carmenere, Cabernet Sauvignon, and "I will NOT drink any %^($in' " Merlot, all 2008 vintage. These Chilean Concha Y Toros should be quite a good buy, but I haven't had this vintage yet. Anybody here who can give me some input?

:ss

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

I went to the wine shop with a list of wines from this thread. I found this one, and the Meridian Pinot (CA). (Also found the Steltzner Claret but it was $25, a little out of my price range.) We drank the Bogle Petite Sirah (07) last weekend and it was splendid. On sale for 8.99, no less. Fantastic recommendation!! :tu

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Dirty tricks afoot in the cheap wine trade: The Great Wine Cover-Up.

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As the article mentioned, it's not just the cheap wines. Not all the tricks are dirty.
These kinds of articles get published from time to time but I treat it like sausage making. Sometimes you don't need to know exactly how it was made. ;)
There have been similar articles and posts about the tricks cigar makers use, ie. maduro dyes.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Nice article, although somewhat misguided as most wine reporters and critics seem to be. He should have done more research. For example, adding tannins is done to retard any bacteria that may have arrived to the winery on grape skins. Small doses of powdered tannin, all natural, of course, but (hopefully) enough to kill any spoilage and used as a precaution in 99% of the cases.

Adding oak chips to wine is not a substitute to aging wine in barrels (contrary to the implication in the article). Chips simply add oak flavor, as article says, but aging in oak barrels leads to micro oxygenation, which is wine AGING (similar to you and me aging wine in our homes for years after the purchase). And as is, chips and staves are simply a by-product of barrel making, anyway. Why throw away perfectly good planks when making barrels?

Chaptalization is legal in France, but illegal in California, the article makes it sound like it is. Besides, with all the "complaints" from experts that CA and Oz wines are too "big" to begin with, why add even more sugar?

Overall, a good look at how the likes of [yellowtail] achieve their target, flavor profile wise, they actually have huge chemical laboratories to gauge consumer wine preferences (sugar laden and oaky wines) and then use chemical additions to get there. Some additions are natural (oak chips, MegaPurple, sugar), some are not.

But in general, you simply cannot take a wine amde from 15 tons per acre crop and turn it into something that was made from a 3 tons (of less) per acre yield. The biggest issue, though, is that all of the wine writers and critics complain about these "additives" and tricks and yet, time and again, I have watchd them give these chemical experiments high scores in tastings, blind or not. On the one hand, they tell consumers about the "evils" of such wine making tricks, on the other they themselves do not have good palates to begin with.

I do not see any attraction in buying non-USA made wines when well made, clean wines are made here and available for same prices as imports. Why send money out of the country?

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

I am not a wine guy (I do home brews) but I do like wine and of course taste is a personanl thing but...

Is there a classically good red wine?

To use an analogy.... Padron cigars (X000's series) in my experience almost always get a thumbs up and don't cost a fortune either.

Thanks!!

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

I am really turned off by dyed maduro wrappers, mostly because I do not know what the process is for dying them. (Food coloring? What the hell is it?) I still wouldn't buy them because stained lips and fingers don't enhance the smoking experience for me, but I wouldn't view them with the same disdain if I knew the process was natural.

But it sounds like a lot of what they're doing with wine is tweaking it with natural wine byproducts. That doesn't sound so bad. Well, except for the silver nitrate and the methanol. Yikes.

Thanks for the info!

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Has any one else tried this one? http://themagnificentwine.com/house_wine.php

I've been impressed by both of their offerings I've tried.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

There are some great looking (well, at least really good looking) 2008 Bordeaux futures that are under $20 now. You won't get them until sometime in 2011, but by then they may (I hesitate to say probably) be selling for a higher price. I have seen some of my '03, '04, '05 Future purchases rise greatly in value (some have almost doubled). I did not buy them to sell for profit, but if I bought them today they would cost a lot more. :2

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

mcmanis cab 2007

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Im a fan of Blackstone Merlot

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Pretty much everything I drink falls into this category of $20. Penfolds Cab/Syrah blend and Root One Cab are a couple favorites. Banfi as well. Also, pretty much any $15 bottle of Zin is a winner in my book.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Had a 2006 David Bruce Pinot Noir (Central Coast) last night (rest of the bottle tonight....hopefully with a cigar) from Costco that I believe was under $20. Anyway, nice-easy drinking Pinot, maybe a little thin but good fruit and no real flaws. I am not a huge Pinot fan or expert, but I would buy this again.
Any other good Pinots in this price range? I'm sure there are, any I should try?

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

Siduri makes an incredible $20 Pinot (blend of various vineyards they use), although it sells rather quickly. Give them a call.

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

a local store by me has a brand called Black Oak, I have had the Shiraz 2005 so far and it was very enjoyable especially because they are 2 for $12 mix 'n match, they also have a brand called Viu Manent, from that vineyard I have had the 2008 Malbec and it was quite tasty for $9

Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:
 

I have seen that brand all over the place and have yet to try it, maybe I should pick up a bottle next time I re-stock the rack :tu