Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Oh, I'm new to this site and posting, so I'm not sure how to get feedback on my last post from SilverFox. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

PM sent

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

It would be safe to assume that you would not have an issue from beetles.

I don't know if there are any other issues with regard to slightly higher temperature storage. I know that mold spores grow better in warmer situations so that may be a concern even if maintaining 65% RH.

Also based on reading it seems there is common conjecture that higher temperatures accelerate the ageing process of a cigar (the ongoing fermentation of the leaves). This is more the case in Cuban cigars but I am sure can be an issue in Non Cubans as well. I am not sure if accelerated ageing (especially in the small increment that would occur due to that temperature variant) would be negative.

In my opinion (nothing really factual) your cigar storage is similar to wine storage. If you are in the range of acceptability then you are ok, it is large fluctuations in both RH and Temperature that cause issues.

On the freezing, given that that your storage conditions are a little warmer it wouldn't hurt to extend your freezing times slightly to ensure full mortality of any beetle eggs, larvae, pupae etc. As I have mentioned before I freeze everything in my collection and have had no beetles since taking on this practice and had zero impact on my cigars.

Hope that helps

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Yes.....I think freezing is just a good insurance policy on my sticks. I really appreciate the feedback man.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Drop me a PM anytime I am more than happy to help

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

if you want you can just ship them to me... everything freezes up here

I freeze everything I get, it is a bit easier for me but after seeing a bug (yuck) I don't play around anymore.

Thanks shawn for this thread

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

OK!

Through the freezer they go! Told the wife to work around them & don't set the Xmas ham on them. So glad to learn this the easy way and not the 'hard' way. Thanks for all the great info!

Tim L.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

:r your outside is one big freezer!!:r

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

I didnt see this asked in the thread so if I missed it sorry.

After you freeze how long til they are smokable? I froze my collection almost three weeks ago after I saw some holes looking similar to the ones on here and some of them still feel wet or moist. Humidity is bordering around 68-70

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Opinions are probably going to vary, but I have been known to smoke them as soon as they return to room temperature.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Yep, me too.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

As a test I actually smoked one directly from the the freezer and found no ill effects.

Typically I will let it come back to temp, then I they are full game.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

I don't think it would make much difference straight out of the freezer. I have gone for walks with a cigar in my pocket in -20C or so... then smoked it on the way home.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

OK...after reading everything here I have a question about not freezing that I didn't see covered. If it was covered, sorry, here's the question anyway.

I have always been aware of the beetle thing but have never froze....yet.
I do segregate all my new stuff for a period of time before I let them mingle with the crowd and allow them to get up close and personal and talk to other sticks. Maybe I've just been lucky so far.........

What would one suggest the allotted time be to keep them segregated to see if there are going to any hatching?

Thanks for the input........

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

You have been lucky, so far. It's kind of like driving without insurance. As long as you don't hit anything, you're golden. One bad incident, however, and you're in the poor house.

As the eggs can lay dormant for some time until the conditions are right, I'm not sure any length of time segregated can insure non-infestation.

Take out the insurance policy and freeze and have some peace of mind. :2

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Thanks Tim.........I fully understand the consequences...but this what I was trying to find out. How long can they lay dorm and what are the conditions?

puff on..........Dave

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Typical life span from egg to adult is 10-12 weeks.

They can continue to flourish even below 70*, although at a slower rate.

Two days in the freezer would seem to be a better option. :)

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Thanks Tim..........I greatly do appreciate your responses and please don't take me wrong when asking again....but this is what I'm trying to find out. I have spent a little time researching on the net and can't find any info there yet.

How long can the eggs lay dormant?

Thanks again..................Dave

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Perhaps this'll help, Dave.

Some biology paragraph.

http://www.thefinerlife.com/smokers_...gar_beetle.htm

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

In the study that I refer to they say that a normal egg will hatch within 4 weeks in suitable conditions but that all eggs hatch or die within a 6 week period at 20c.

Now remember that is only the eggs, the larvae have between 5 to 10 weeks and then move on to the the pupal and prepupal stages can take up to 3 weeks and then on to adult hood which adds another potential 4 weeks.

Assuming maximum range on all life stages it seems reasonable to assume that it could be 6 months of time that could pass before you could be sure of total mortality. That assumes of course that a female does not lay more eggs.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Tim......Thank you so much. This is one article I had not come across yet.
I'll give it a good reading when I get the time a little later.


Puff on.......................Dave

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long
 

Great info!!! Thank you!!!

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Is it 100% fact that Habanos SA freezes all stock before shipping to distributors?

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

All?

100% fact

I would venture to say no.

But even if they do the vendors use warehouses and or large humidors that may have beetles in them anyway so the freezing at Habanos SA does not preclude that they will not come in contact with the little vermin prior to getting to your humidor

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Great. I will start by freezing my current stock!

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Awesome discussion. Thanks guys. Information like this is invaluable to a newbie like me.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

:tu I'm in the same boat..This is prob the most valuable cigar thread I've ever read.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Thanks gentlemen I am glad you got some value out of it. That makes it worth writing up stuff like this if people get some value from it.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Very informative topic, and I thank you for this. :tu My initial plan when I first got introduced to cigars, was to never freeze my cigars and hope for the best, until one day I opened my humidor and found a little portion of my stash affected. It was that day that I decided that all cigars bought, would go through a 5 day freezing process, and 2 day refrigeration process to ensure those diabolic creatures never show their faces again. Until now, I have had no problems, or change in taste of cigars. I have tried the same one's before freezing and after, and if anything the frozen one's taste better. (It might be Psychological :r) Nevertheless, I enjoyed reading this thread, and I hope no one has to go through the troubles of dealing with beetles ever.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Shawn do you have any opinion on freezing cigars to kill mold and mold spores?

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Yup

From my research a normal household deep freeze will not go low enough to kill mold spores, it makes them dormant while they are frozen but does not kill.

Mold likes two things, warm and moist. The best way to keep away from mold on your sticks is too watch you temps and RH.

Oxygen-rich environments with humidity over 70% and temperatures above 60 degrees Fahrenheit are ideal for mold growth.

Keeping boxes closed (so no spores get in) and maintaining your RH less than 70% (my preference is 64 to 66% but YMMV) and temps sub 70F is the best way to avoid it.

regular inspection (especially of freshly received over-humidified sticks) can catch mold early and it can simply be wiped off with a soft rag, paper towel or soft bristle brush.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

That's my problem. Two boxes of tubos way over humified. My humi is 68* and 62% but I want to kind of get these things dried up!

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

They came from the vendor like this.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Well if the mold is off them just let them acclimate slowly, rushing the process can cause uneven humidification in the cigar causing burn issues etc.

Give em a month or two and they should be fine, assuming you took them out of the tubos.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I was hoping to be able to keep them in the tubos once I dry them out. Should remove them from the tubos?

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

If there is cedar in your tubos, remove that for sure.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Cedar is inside the tubos. I will seperate all tomorrow when I take them out of their frozen sleep.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

If you want to keep them in the tubos that is fine.

But I agree with the Hog get rid of the cedar (it is likely full of mold spores) also I would swab out each of the tubos with Isopropyl alcohol and let them air out while the sticks are acclimating to the RH that you want once they get there you can put them back in the tubos if you want

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Good advice indeed. :tu

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

If they came from the vendor full of mold, you should be taking a photo and emailing them to have them send replacements, not worrying about controlling the mold**. You paid for good product, not a blue cheese infused cigar. It's their job to deliver you a quality product as promised. :2


**: unless of course they told you to just toss the moldy ones and they sent replacements, then by all means, control away on the moldy cigars rather than toss them. I know I'd at least consider it, depending on how bad the mold is.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I have contacted the vendor. Nothing they can do, IMO. THese more than likely wont make it out of the country. Unfortunately this is just the way it is.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I thought the cedar acted like a barrier between the aluminum and the cigar. I took out and dumped the cedar. Will clean the tubos later.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Well done post, Shawn. :tu
I was reading Wayner's problem. There's another explanation besides cross-contamination...
The temp charts you posted are annotated for simplicity. They're originally from a study that considered an 80% kill rate as "controlled", then "scientifically" (read, guessed at) adjusted for maximum efficacy. That's because beetles, just like most other bugs, become resistant to cold as they march north. Natural selection isolates the fittest, and they become more resistant. There's always a mutant bizarro or two in a batch of bugs that you just can't kill with freezing.
Wayner could just be THAT lucky. :D
Despite that, freezing lowers the odds of infestation dramatically. It's good practice, and as you've suggested, even better practice to do everything yourself. :tu

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Any reputable Vendor would have taken them back.

I would suggest if they said there is nothing they can do that maybe they are not a vendor that you want to use anymore.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

There is something they can do but like I said, they won't make it back to them. They'll be confiscated.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Can I ask why you believe that they will not make it out of the country? If it is the vendor that told you this, then obviously they are lying so that they do not have to replace the sticks.

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

I just found beetles. Grrrrrrr....... I had to toss an entire box of ISOMs ( from 2003) and now I am going though about 40 or so boxes, checking them one by one. So far I have found a few other ones which I had to toss.
Obviously I am already started freezing the first batch.
Not happy.
WeekendSmoker

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

You can try freezing the cigars with minimal beetle damage. Do you freeze your cigars when you buy them?

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

Why not just smoke them? Was the damage so bad that you couldn't smoke the cigar?

Re: How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post
 

:tpd:

Freeze to prevent further contamination but I smoked all my beetle damaged sticks........satisfies some primal urge to know the little fckers burned :ss