Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I don’t know, maybe I’m the one missing something here… That is possible....

I just keep seeing comparisons, but IMO there isn’t anything to compare this to. This is unchartered territory for anything we have seen in our lifetime. It is almost unbelievable, like a bad Lifetime Movie meets SportsCenter nuclear bomb of bad television….. Trying to compare some isolated legal problems of student athletes or coaches to the YEARS AND YEARS of serial sexual abuse of children and cover-up of it at PSU is not apples to oranges, it is a single rollerblade boot without wheels and the Space Shuttle….

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I don't think you are missing anything, just are of a different opinion. Boiled down to the basics, I think it should be left up to the courts and that the NCAA should not get involved for this.

I think everyone agrees that the hammer should be dropped on Penn State, just debate over which hammer.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I wasn't aware of a minimum amount of infractions an NCAA institution had to incure before action was taken. In short, if rules were violated at Penn State, they were violated at other universities as well and the NCAA, for reasons unbeknownst to me, failed to take action.
And how you can trivialize the other illegal activities (some of which were connected, some of which were covered up by their respective athletic departments) is equally beyond me.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Fair enough, so with that, would you agree that an argument saying that because "the NCAA has no history of punishing for a domestic violence, DUI, assault or theft ect. So the NCAA getting involved with this, which I feel is a legal issue, should not happen either?" to debate their side is sooooooo far removed from anything we have ever seen, that comparison just doesn't compute?

Let's remember that usually(always?) when a student athlete or coach has a legal issue, they are usually punished by the school as well as the legal system. It isn't like they just deal with the court process and then are good as gold.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I would agree with the NCAA getting involved when there is a violation of an NCAA rule, which, to my knowledge, does not include items like those you listed. What happened at Penn State is so heinous that it seems easy to overlook the similarities between what Sandusky did, and a player or coach raping or assaulting someone in an isolated incident. But I think you need to look at TYPE of act and not DEGREE of act.

I think the difference here is that when the student athletes are punished but the university for a legal issue, its because those athletes sign code of conduct agreements that explicitly discuss what will happen if an athlete faces legal issues.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I don't have to "trivialize" to know how to address things on different levels, related to what I am looking at. You know, you don't deal with a parking ticket, like you do with a DUI, which is looked at different than a DUI with injury, which is looked at differently than a 5th DUI conviction because of the history bla..bla..bla.... Apparently you cannot(don't want to?) differentiate on those levels, which is my point. That is okay, at least I know where you are with it.....

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I am not following your type of act vs degree of act? So you agree we have never seen anything like this in our history and thus, it will be treated differently or no?


Your second statement was just a response to my comments on kids being punished for their crimes X 2. I was not so much stating that if the school didn't do it, the NCAA would, but that it is not an either/or when talking about athletes/athletic programs in my mind. Just because they are punished by the law, does not mean that further sanctions are not in order. I actually think the school will punish itself in this situation, which may very well satisfy the NCAA.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I agree that we have never seen anything like this in our history, and I think that regardless of the extent of the acts, that it isn't the place of the NCAA to enforce sanctions when no NCAA rules were broken.

Correct, it doesn't have to be either/or. But in the example of a student athlete, they sign a specific code of conduct that says they will be punished by the school if they break the law (and then they are also likely punished by the law for breaking the law)

In this case, there does not appear to be an NCAA violation for the NCAA to also punish Penn State on top of what punishment they will face in civil court.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Fair enough.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Jim, my concern is that the school will fall through the cracks. The admins who orchestrated the coverup will probably face criminal and/or civil action. I haven't heard that PSU is facing a civil suit at this time. Perhaps they are. Even if they are though, they will continue to benefit from these crimes via football revenue if the NCAA doesn't sanction them severly i.e. give them the death penalty. The civil court doesn't have the ability to kill the football program for and period of time, only the NCAA does.

I highly doubt the civil court will punish them anywhere as sever as the death penalty would. According to this site: http://blogs.mcall.com/nittany_lines...uch-money.html Penn State turned a $50.4 million profit in 2010, on $70.2 million in revenue. I can't see a civil court awarding anything equivalent to a 2-4 year ban on football (approximately $280 million of revenue or $200 million profit).

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Yes, and each infraction carries a varying degree of punishment, depending on the crime, of which the NCAA has NEVER involved themselves with.
Would you say that Colordao circa 1997-2004 (bit hazy on the timeline; sorry) fits your bill of, "lack of institutional control"?

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I'm sure news about the civil case will come out in not too long. Right now they are probably trying to settle out of court. Regardless, the victims will get paid. They may not face the same losses as the death penalty (although I can easily see it being over $100 million)

No matter what the penalties, nothing can undo what happened. I am just of the opinion that the death penalty for the program punishes the wrong people.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Some of the judgments paid by the catholic church in the last 10 years may contradict that. Almost three quarters of a billion (720 million dollars) by the archdiocese of Los Angeles alone...

Edit - not trying to get religious, fyi. Just a comparison based on similar crimes.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Again, your comparisons that are shallow at best.... Unless, there was a serial rapist/murderer what have you, that was on staff at that time and the head coach(was it McCartney then?) and administration was covering up for him, letting him continue unabated, on staff and then off....but you know, letting him use the showers and whatnot...

Though, please do tell what you think was happening during those years that has relevance here....what was close....in the same ballpark as what we are talking about.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

A multitude of rapes/sexual assaults by multiple football players, a coverup (or the very least a, "glossing over") by the coaching staff and administration, and, if I remember correctly, a sympathetic DA's office. Again, this is all from memory, but it was a fairly big deal at the time.

In any case, my overall point is that if it's a question of ethical conduct, why hasn't the NCAA gotten involved in incidents too numerous to mention? If it's, "lack of institutional control", why didn't the NCAA investigate the likes of Colorado or Nebraska? Or am I to believe that something the magnitude that transpired at Penn State needs to occur before institutional control is lost? :sh

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

BINGO!!!!! :noon:noon:noon

Yes, that is the point EXACTLY! You got it....I feel like if this was a race, we could all give you a hug right now.

I am not sure about your memory of the facts at Colorado, I don't recall numerous rapes(or even some felony after felony wagon train of which the NCAA had never seen before) that were covered up, hidden from the public ect. My assumption is that is how the public found out, arrests ect. But I could be wrong, doesn't matter....AGAIN...it wasn't in the ballpark of what we are talking. The reason you haven't seen an uproar of the general public, many of which are not even sports fans, asking for the NCAA to do something in this case and not others.....THE MAGNITUDE. Which is why the NCAA might do something......THE MAGNITUDE.

It isn't a bunch of idiot athletes making a mistake here, committing a felony there & then a coach giving a 1-2 game suspension and then saying "He's a kid, let's give him another chance" - translation - "I can win games with this kid or he'd already be gone." It is decades of child molestation and cover up. Not only glossing over wrong doing, give a second chance....but covering up and letting this man continue to rape kids on their watch... HOW PHUCKING SICK IS THAT. Yes, some 18-22 year old kids making mistakes and being disciplined, then given a second(3,4,5th) chance is one thing.... Harboring a child rapist....well, I think you get the point.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

So your saying that the NCAA should of handed out the death penalty to NU because of one player that got caught with drugs or a DUI?

Your comparing apples to oranges here.

The one student was punished good enough in the eyes of the NCAA so they didn't feel a need to step in.

PSU....................YEARS and YEARS of cover ups and child rape.

Not exactly comparing the same kind of crimes. Hard to justify the same kind of punishment.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

No, we live in the internet age. If what happened at Colorado came to light in the manner it did at Penn State, you bet your ass people would be up in arms. And frankly, I'm not about to say that one man comitting heinous acts being covered up by a few is worse than several men comitting heinous acts being covered up by a few, but that's just me. :2
Seriously, how crass. So MULTIPLE college athletes who rape women (including their own freaking teammate) simply, "make a mistake.." I'm sure the ten women (at least; only ten came forward) don't share your sentiment.

So done with this conversation.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Uh, Christian Peter raped two women while at Nebraska. Kathy Redmond reported it, nothing came of it. Nebraska tried to cover it up. She brought a civil suit against the University and won. That's not even mentioning all the other crap and arrests while there. Missed exactly zero games due to these infractions (and oh yeah, was a team captain in 1995).

Lawrence Phillips, well, you should know that story.

But here's an article about the team around that time.

And no, I'm not comparing what happened here to what happened at Penn State. I'm stating that it could be argued that, "institutional control" (as has been interpreted in this thread by a few) has been lost at other campuses at other points in time and the NCAA chose not to intervene.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Maybe so, but when one of the main guys that should be controlling things dosen't come forward for YEARS, you have a problem. Don't think for a second the NCAA didn't look into NU's problems also. The NCAA had nothing to gain by letting it slip.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Please show me 10 rapes, kid still playing, cover up... I'll wait....

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I'm not sure I ever seen a convicted rapist(happen at a school, play again at that school) play college football again...

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

But again, I'll wait for your information....

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Two years would satisfy me!

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I don’t think PSU deserves the Death Penalty, but the sanctions need to be a hair below that. If it is not more severe than recent NCAA sanctions, it would be a slap in the victim’s faces. Ponder this: college football is a business, and if this happened in a true business environment, not only would the persons responsible would be punished; the company would feel the pain, MONEY. And how can the NCAA indirectly limit the schools ability to make MONEY, sanctions through bowl appearances, and stripping of scholarships.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I've heard that argument a LOT in the last week or so, and am pretty tired of it. I heard one guy on Sirius radio use this reasoning, saying that it's not right to further hurt the school, hurt the students who love the school, hurt the fans who love the school and program and would have to miss out on games lost, hurt the people who make a living from the program in some way (think vendors who sell at games, etc). Yeah, that would hurt them SO much more than Sandusky was allowed to hurt those poor kids :sl Give me a break!!!

Using that line of reasoning, almost NO programs should ever receive NCAA punishment then. I'm a UK Wildcat B'Ball fan from way back. When Eddie Sutton's program got in big trouble in the late '80's, the program lost big time. Eddie and his son Sean (who was the one who was supposedly taking tests for Erik Manuel), in the meantime got to move on to OK State to continue coaching/playing with no such punishment. I believe Manuel finished college at a NAIA school, while UK lost scholarships and tournament opportunities. This punished the athletes, fans, students, and all those connected with the UK program that made money from it (vendors, etc). And it SHOULD have been punished. The program was doing wrong, got caught, and had to be punished. Those who ran the program, coach included, were part of a culture that felt it was above it all. Harsh punishment was needed, as much as I hated to feel the repercussions as a fan.

The issue at Penn State may not have been one where improper activity was knowingly conducted by those in the program and/or running the program to directly and improperly help student athletes/staff personally or give the program a competitive advantage. But the way those at the top (including Paterno) handled things with Sandusky allowed him continued access to all things Penn State Football, which he used to continue his evil, and the covering up of his activities by the CULTURE of Penn State leadership (if the Freeh report is correct) kept the Penn State Way untarnished to the public view, which kept the recruits coming in, along with student, alumni, and corporate support. This IS a program issue on this side of it, and would be one area where the NCAA should be looking to level sanctions to the football program because of the way Sandusky was handled by Penn State. Because Penn State leadership covered this issue up, they received improper benefits in recruiting and support of the program. Think that's a weak argument? I'd say they had much more benefit from covering this up (while it stayed covered up) than those OSU kids got from trading for tattoos. Did the NCAA let THAT coverup go unpunished???

I realize that the student athletes were nowhere involved in this, and it sucks for them. But this became all about the program leadership doing anything they could to cover the evil up to protect The Penn State Way. There was more concern shown for Sandusky than for any of his victims. The program has to be punished for this, whether those responsible are still there or not. The culture HAS to change, especially in light of what that culture did in the face of such horrible evil. Given what I'm still hearing and reading since the Freeh report broke, the culture is still fully in place.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

You, and others in this thread, have perfectly valid points that make a lot of sense. We will just have to agree to disagree. While I agree Penn State should face great penalties, I still don't think the NCAA is the proper enforcer in this case.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

For criminal acts perpetrated, no, NCAA has ZERO jurisdiction, and thus, no teeth to bare. But WRT the program's leadership covering up to save the face of the Penn State Way and protect the football program and Paterno's rep at all cost, yeah, the NCAA should be involved; that IS within its jurisdiction, IMO.

Give you another scenario: gambling is illegal in many states. If a program in a non-gambling state is caught up in a point-shaving scheme, or some other gambling scheme, and students and staff are involved, there are going to be legal repercussions involved. But given the consequences from the athletics and competition standpoint, would not the NCAA also have to get involved here as well and level punishment???

You're probably right; we will agree to disagree on this one, and I respect your right to your viewpoint, as well as any others on here. I will say this; even though I love the UK Cats, it will not surprise me if something gets flagged in Coach Cal's tenure that will bring down the pain on the B'Ball program. If they get caught and the facts show they cheated in some way, even if it means vacating wins and a title, as much as I dislike the NCAA powers-that-be, I would stand behind sanctions we get hit with. But I don't want to hear ONE WORD about UK getting what it deserves from ANYONE who stands against Penn State NCAA penalties on this issue. Just my :2; your mileage may vary.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Joe Schad is reporting that the NCAA will announce tomorrow(Monday) they will penalize, but not with the "death penalty.". Penalty will most likely be Bowl appearance &/or scholarships.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I personally believe that if the NCAA decides to impose punishment...they should allow the football players (as they were not involved in this heinous crime) the ability to transfer, while losing no eligilbility. They should allow them to transfer and start playing for their new school right away. While I agree the school needs to be punished in some form or fashion...I don't believe the NCAA should be the one imposing punishment, but if they do...the student athletes shouldn't be the ones who suffer. :2

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Though we disagree on the NCAA's responsibility to step in here with sanctions, I am 100% in agreement that the Student Athletes should have the ability to get an outright release from their commitment to the school and be allowed to play at whatever NCAA institution they choose w/ financials(assuming they were offered elsewhere).

I'll go a step further, even without NCAA sanctions, these Students Athletes should be allowed immediate transfer to another institution without penalty due to the perceived stain of PSU. If they didn't want to play under that cloud, they shouldn't have to.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

+2; right with you on that one. This was all a leadership failure, nothing on the student-athlete at all, and they should be given every chance to continue their opportunities unabated at another school. They did nothing to deserve a cloud over their heads; Penn State leadership, in effect, hurt them also, though nowhere near what happened with those poor boys.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

As was the case with SMU, reports are that the athletes will be allowed to transfer without penalty or sanction.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I think the sanctions were pretty fair. I do believe it's going to basically kill the team for a few years.

No post season games/bowl games for 4 years.
Scholarships went from 25-15 for 4 years.
Students may transfer immediatly and still play.
School must give up 60 million dollars.
A vacation of all wins dating to 1998 & The career record of former head football coach Joe Paterno will reflect these vacated records.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

An example was definitely made...

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Couldn't agree more...

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

It'll be interesting to read what part of the NCAA Manual they used to to impose the penalties (if they said it in the press conference, I missed it)

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Read this. Not exactly what your looking for, in fact, seems they are kind of beating around the bush about giving a direct reason.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...ns-dating-1998


Here are some other things I missed.

With the wins from 1998-2011 vacated, Paterno drops from 409 wins to 298, dropping him from first to 12th on the winningest NCAA football coach list. Penn State will also have six bowl wins and two conference championships erased.


The Big Ten will also sanction Penn State. The conference has called an 11 a.m. ET news conference to announce to league-related penalties

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Found this article, too.

‎"NCAA president Mark Emmert gained approval from the board of directors for the penalties. The board is made up of 22 college presidents and chancellors" ... "Emmert said Penn State has signed a consent decree in regard to the penalties"

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--...ild-abuse.html

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Tremendous spanking to send a clear message.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Yes, but I think it was a reasonable punishment.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

As you know, I still disagree on the NCAA being involved. But since the NCAA has gotten involved, I don't mind vacating the wins or the 60 million dollar fine.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

What about the other punishments from the NCAA?

-No post season games/bowl games for 4 years.
-Scholarships went from 25-15 for 4 years.
-Students may transfer immediatly and still play.



There are still more punishments to follow this afternoon as well.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I don't like the scholarships lost or post season ban, but that is probably mostly relating back to me not believing the NCAA should have been involved in the first place. But I think vacating the wins and the fine better punish the proper people, although people that were not involved at all will be affected from any penalty.

This is a terrible situation, if making an example of Penn State works to bring the untouchable status of college football programs down, then good will come out of it. I'm not really too optimistic for that, though. At least not beyond the culture at Penn State.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Am I the only one who doesn't agree with the wins being vacated? I'm not trying to defend Paterno here, but leaving his winning record intact would be a learning opportunity for a lot of young athletes and coaches. It would show for future generations that sports isn't everything. Look at what this guy did on the field, and then look at what he was capable of when no one was looking.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

Totally agree.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I guess I don't see your reasoning.

That would be like saying that we will let USC remain the national champs although they were paying their players to play for them and their heisman trophy winner that was also paid was a big reason why they won.

Why should they get to keep their wins. Who's to say they would have won without Paterno?

Why should they get to keep awards and records they otherwise maybe wouldn't of gotten without paterno.

Thats like saying, it's ok to cheat and do wrong behind the NCAA's back, you will still get a bowl ring to keep.:2

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

But there was no cheating going on in this case.
Yes, everyone involved are all creeps and douchebags, and they deserved to be punished, but erasing records is just the easy way out, so we won't have to talk about what happened in the future. At most, put an asterisk beside those wins, kinda like Barry Bonds' accomplishments.

I'm not suggesting that the wins stay intact to glorify anyone or to keep anyone's legacy intact. In fact, I'm suggesting keeping the wins in place so that future generations can look back and see that winners on the field aren't always good people. Erasing this is the easy way out.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

In every sense of the word, it was cheating and brings home the lack of institutional control. Covering up child rape because of the fear of the negative publicity and to protect the image of the football program, you are committing far worse infractions than what can be done typically in the recruiting/academic means.

Re: Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?
 

I see what your getting at but leaving those wins there does nothing but glorify the school, players and coaches.