Re: NHL '11 - '12 Thread
 

5 games.

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I think that's fair. :2

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Provisional on how long Sedin is out I'd agree. I firmly believe that with hits like that, on any player, the offender should be sitting for as long as the injured player is out AND the offenders team shouldn't be allowed to dress a replacement. It's not possible under the current rule structure but the changes should be made to allow it's implementation.

Re: NHL '11 - '12 Thread
 

yeah that would be a plan. Garbage like that needs to be taken out of the game. Not sure a few games or these 2500$ fines really do much to deter. The guy makes 4 million a year and you fine him 2500...

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Actually it's closer to $250,000. At $4 million per year Keith makes $48,780 per game and players forfeit their salary when suspended.

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good point. I was referring to the NHL fine (and I really don't know what it is in this case but writing historically) but yeah that has to sting a little.

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Correction, the Chicago Tribune is reporting that he will forfeit $149,688.15 in salary. Not pocket change exactly but still not a huge dent in his personal finances.

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Can they make it retroactive so Todd Bertuzzi can be out of the NHL? ;)

I disagree with some of your argument, let's take the case at hand as an example: The Canucks can replace Sedin in the line-up, so if he were to miss 15 games, then the Hawks should only dress 19 for 15 games while the Canucks dress 20? Players Union will never allow that to happen.

How about Scott Stevens' hit on Eric Lindros in the 2000 playoffs? By today's standards, it would be deemed illegal (targeting the head). If Lindros were concussed and could never play again because of ongoing problems, should Stevens be out of the league for life?

Or David Steckel's hit on Crosby in the 2010 Winter Classic....it could be deemed intentional, or unintentional, depending on perspective. Crosby has missed most of 2 seasons for the effects and after effects of that hit. Should Steckel be sitting?

It's a fast game, played at a furious pace with decisons and instinctual moves made in fractions of seconds sometimes. Keith's hit was dirty and he deserves to be suspended, but what if Sedin is "softer" than some of the NHL players, and takes 20 games to recover from a hit that most would recover from in 3....you see where I am going, so I won't continue to belabor the point. It's not just "homer" logic either, as I sit watching Jonathan Toews miss his 17th game due to a head shot.

Not directed at being argumentative with you, Geoff, just some of my thoughts on the "tit for tat" suspension ideas I have heared bandied about. :)

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Or Mr Flying Elbow himself (aka Steve Moore).... oh wait.... ;)

The Bertuzzi Incident was a direct result of the league screwing the pooch on Moore's elbow to Naslund. The fact that they haven't learned yet speaks volumes, although it is improving I s'pose. In the good old days the NHL seems to think are still the norm Keith would have been stretchered off the ice at some point in the remainder of that game.

Re: NHL '11 - '12 Thread
 

Or maybe just pulled off the ice by his hair.... ;)

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Lol

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A few of huge games for playoff position in the West tonight.

San Jose - Phoenix

Vancouver - Colorado

Los Angeles - Boston

I need one of those TVs with screens that divide into thirds. ;)

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Sorry to celebrate in your misery Tom but real glad Nash pulled that out. I was losing in my hockey pool playoffs to a real d@$k. Rinne is one of my goalies so I needed a strong game after he crapped the bed earlier this week.
The Blues are going tone real tough. Another real strong game from them. Their goal tending is sick

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Yup, that was a stinker. Missed the game though, my men's league team was busy winning our second championship in 2 years....so I am pretty happy tonight as far as hockey goes. :)

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...Lasers2012.jpg

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Congrats bud

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Congratulations Tom. :tu

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Thanks John and Brett! :D

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See your playing in the over 70 division.
Congrats brother.

Re: NHL '11 - '12 Thread
 

That's why I say it's not possible under the current rules, but the current rules are also obviously not discouraging enough to stop hits like this from occurring. As I mentioned above, $150K isn't exactly pocket change but it's also not a massive amount of money to someone with the salary of Duncan Keith. However $600K (to use your example of Sedin being out for 15 games + the 5 game suspension) is a significant hit.

If the Players Union was serious about protecting their membership then they wouldn't have a problem with implementing a clause like this in the next CBA. I know that Keith being out of the lineup is actually a bit of a problem for the Hawks, he's your ice time leader and due to injuries he'll be hard to backfill, but there is no real penalty imposed at the team level to act as an incentive to change the game's culture and ultimately that's what's needed.

Yes Keith received a suspension, and one that was harsh for a first timer, but the Canucks have lost their leading scorer (and the NHL's reigning Art Ross Trophy holder) for an indefinite period of time heading into the post-season. I'm not saying that it was Keith's intention to do that, but ultimately why should the Canucks or any other team be forced to endure a bigger disadvantage due to a blatantly illegal and dangerous hit? It's life when a player is injured via an accidental impact or play, when it's a hit like this the offending player's team should have to bear an equal or bigger disadvantage for as long as the injured player is out.

It's impossible and pointless to play revisionist history, that's part of the reason why I get so frustrated with the Don Cherry mentality of look how great (or at least) ok it was in the "good old days". In the really good old days Gordie Howe had to have a hole drilled in his skull to relieve pressure on his brain and then he was expected back out on the ice. Now he's a recluse who is so damaged by the long term effects of head trauma that he wouldn't even attend his own son's induction into the Hall of Fame.

In the context of current knowledge, yes Steven's should have been banned for life many times over for his behaviour. So should have Bertuzzi for his hit on Moore, Moore should have been heavily suspended for his hit on Naslund and so should have Torres for his hit on Seabrook. Wendel Clark, Joey Kocur, Bob Probert, etc etc etc. The list is endless, but you can't penalize the past anymore than you can apply current values to it. The solution is to actually put in REAL penalties moving forward.

First leading hit to the head; 25 games. Second; half season. Third; full season. Fourth; here's your retirement papers. No if's and's or buts about it, those are automatic suspensions in the same way that high sticking is automatically 4 min if blood is drawn. If the player you injured is out for longer than the period of your suspension, your suspension is extended indefinitely until they are medically cleared to play. During the course of your suspension your team cannot call up or dress a replacement. I promise you that all of a sudden you'll see all the crap disappear from the game.

If Sedin is softer and takes longer to recover then tough titties for the Hawks. As I mentioned above why should the Canucks (in this example) be forced to play at a significant disadvantage for longer than the team of the offending player? The only thing is there would need to be league oversight of the medical clearance to prevent teams from using injuries like the one to Sedin in brinksmanship games.

The "it's a fast game" argument is bunkum, these guys are s'posed to be highly tuned professional athletes, if they can't control their appendages and/or instinctual hit in the legal manner they've been taught since they were in their early teens then they don't belong on the ice.

Look at the number of genuine stars the league has lost for significant periods of time to concussion and head injury. Crosby, Toews, Sedin, etc as a fan of hockey those are the guys you want out there every night showcasing their skills. It's want sells and grows the game. Even the NFL is getting serious about enforcement (albeit due to legal threats from players that have had their careers ended), what will it take for the NHL to finally step up and remove this crap from the game? A death on prime time network tv?

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Hands down longest post ever in this thread.
T L T R

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All valid points, Geoff, with the possible exception of the Player's Union backing the suspensions you propose...it will never happen, bet my job on it.

Also even making the suspensions automatic will be a problem, as there are often hits which impact the head, where the head was not "targeted". Who makes the subjective call on the objective standard.

I agree competely that head hits warrant some changes. I would argue that the Hawks' loss of Toews is more significant than the Canucks losing Daniel, but that is subjective as well. I just doin't think the changes that you propose have a popsicle's chance in Hell of getting put into place. That being said, I reitierate that I think you make lots of valid points.

Re: NHL '11 - '12 Thread
 

Wow!

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I don't expect it will ever happen, but it's actions like that which are needed to remove these kind of hits from the game. This air-fairy small suspension crap that the league seems to want to hand out is just not disincentive enough to make a real difference.

The ONLY way to remove it is to enforce mandatory penalties. Given Shannahan (or whoever) the ability to excise judgement calls in headshots just leads to scenarios where weak meaningless suspensions are issued and the game continues on as before because there's no muscle in the punishment. Automatic penalties force players to be accountable for their actions and while some may very occasionally get the shaft the overall result will be to almost entirely remove headshots from the game.

Rugby did it with spear tackles. The NFL did it with head contact. The NHL needs to do it with headshots.

I'd agree with out that Toews is probably more important overall to the Hawks org than Sedin is to the Canucks (especially in March :rolleyes: ) but just because the Canucks currently have greater offensive depth doesn't discount the fact that they are now without their top offensive player and the league has lost yet another of it's star players. To me it doesn't really matter whether you're talking about the league's top star or the least skilled 4th liner on the last place team in the league.... the penalty for a headshot should be the same and it should be very very harsh.

Re: NHL '11 - '12 Thread
 

Again, I agree with most of your points. Just don't see how the "Automatic" part would work because there are too many subjective factors to treat each case exactly the same. :2

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Think Avs have to win their next 4 or pull out the golf clubs... Though they may have exceeded my expectations, they have sleepwalked some games late(PHX)... Where is Matty D when we need him?

GO AVS!!!!

Re: NHL '11 - '12 Thread
 

That's the good thing about automatic penalties though, it removes all of the subjective factors which are currently preventing progress on the issue. For example, look at what rugby did to remove spear tackles from the game.

You are responsible as the tackler to control your man and guide him to the ground in a safe and legal matter. If you raise his ankles above his waist in the tackle, whether it's and you get an automatic red card (leaving your team 1 man short for the rest of the match) and a game suspension.

It doesn't matter whether your action was intentional or accidental, you failed in your responsibility to protect another player's safety on the field and you have to pay the consequence. You are also automatically reviewed by a disciplinary panel and if the act is deemed intentional you are subjected to further fines and suspensions.

While a 1 match automatic suspension may not sound like a lot, the average professional rugby player plays about 16 matches per year (1 a week, just like the NFL) so that's roughly equal to an NHL player getting an automatic 5 game suspension. As a result of that rule change spear tackles have all be been removed for the game and a lot of serious head and spinal injuries avoided.

It's worked in other high speed, high impact professional sports... there's no reason other than the NHL's unwillingness to be accountable that it can't work here too.

Re: NHL '11 - '12 Thread
 

OK, I can go with rugby's lead. So now the NHL will mandate a hit to the head is an automatic one game suspension. Then hits will be automatically reviewed by a disciplinary panel and if the act is deemed intentional they are subjected to further fines and suspensions.

Not a lot different really, is it?

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The secondary review is subjective, the initial penalties are not. As a direct result of the new rule almost every single one of the incidents sent to that review board is an accidental lift in the course of normal play.... there are very very few internationals anymore. It's completely removed the Matt Cooke-ism from the game of rugby.

I'm more than fine with running with rugby's example as a start. If the league would implement an automatic 5 min major, game misconduct and 5 game minimum suspension (remember, 1 game in rugby is 1/16th of the season which is 5 games in an 82 game season) for all headshots with a mandatory review to determine if there was intent and therefore further suspension I bet you'd see a huge change in player behaviour.

Now, gotta hop in a cab to head down to Rogers Arena to see if the Canucks can manage to do something against the Kings :D

Re: NHL '11 - '12 Thread
 

I actually will say good luck to the Canucks tonight, anybody below the Hawks in the hunt needs to lose. :lr

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Good convo going here.

I am with Geoff for the most part. All good points. When there is something tough to measure like intent we still need something to penalize otherwise there is no way to change the culture. I hate not seeing Crosby out there. Everyone loses by not having those superstars including Toews and Sedin on the ice. It is bound to happen where an "innocent" person gets penalized for a hit that was an accident but if it is on a sliding scale as Geoff points out, it is highly unlikely that the same person would accidently do it again and again.

It's still unlikely something sweeping like that would happen. Small moves are usually the par for the course. I think they are getting closer to coming out with something.

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Sorry brother. The Sharks played a great game and the hockey gods smiled on them. Sharks take over lead in the pacific and go from 9th to 3rd

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You're welcome ;)

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Shutout bonus! Bobby Luo is my fantasy team goalie. :r

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We were getting update feeds here and killing our pain with liquor, Mike... Ugh.... That's a wrap....

Flip side, good for your Sharks

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Side note, though not an Avs game, they're showing hockey nightly at our hotel in the sports bar, sweet deal...:tu

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Some BIG games in the west. Flames need this and the Oil need to make fodder of the Stars.

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Come on VAN!

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Flames and Avs are toast. Looks like the Sharks, Stars, Kings and Yotes are in for a crazy couple weeks.

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Heading down to the United Center tomorrow night, hoping the Hawks can give the Blues a good game without Toews and Keith.

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Don't forget it's also Leaf Day

http://www.mithril.ca/img/leaf-day.jpg

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The fans at the T D Garden love Phil, you always hear the Thank You Kessel Chant when the Leafs come to town :r

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Yea and I thought the Avs might have had a chance of making it in :td

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lmao!!!

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Dont go giving the Sharks more credit then they deserve. Looking like theybare not going to make it. Marleau 2 goals in the last 18 games if you need him. The team has scorred one goal in 2 games. Times like this is when you expect your vets to make a difference not be a non factor.

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Watched them last night when I got home from the Hawks game, Mike. Very disappointing.

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Freaking Sharks!!! Coture has been on a pretty good schnide too. He has been getting the crap beat out of him since the All Stars. Welcome to the Big Boys.

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My wife Kim surprised me with Wings tickets for my birthday today. On my way to see the Wings/Preds fight for home ice right now. Howard first start since 3/18 I think. Hope he's not rusty.
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Re: NHL '11 - '12 Thread
 

They could just split up the series, and give the Hawks 4th place. ;)

:hb

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I gotta say, my Blueshirts are just playing some solid, good, old fashion hockey this season. It is refreshing to see.