Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I know Peter, I know....I just want the guilty to fry...it's hard, I'm resisting, I'm resisting. I sit here resisting. Makes sense.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I am not in favor of taking legal action. If he wants to screw me, fine. I don't have time to deal with investigations, etc.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I got took for $158.00. Fortunately, I used PP and was able to recoup most of the money. I started the case with them after I saw the negative feedback starting to show up on his trader page. I did my purchase off board so I did not leave feedback. Isn't that normal protocol?

Thanks,

MCS

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

How do we add Dan to the list???:confused:

Is it possible to start a list of our own as a Sticky (with rules of course)???

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

A couple of things.

My thanks to you who have either PM'd me, emailed me or spoken kind words here to me. It was not my intent this be a poor Fox thread, I went into this deal with my head up knowing that I could lose my money as I do on every deal.

It was to present the facts I had for others to be aware.

As for the legal action, I am in agreement with Poker.

An interesting point I didn't think of arrising from this was Vin's point that we all bear a culpability to provide honest trader feedback on all deals good and bad. Being a "nice guy" and not saying the truth compromises any value the trader feedback tool has to other users.

On a more smug note........I too am a firm believer in Karma..........Cigar Beetle, I like that.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Listen for the "pop." :)

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I'm actually struggling with a similar question Scott. I have an "off board" deal that hasn't been satisfied and am not sure if neg feedback is appropriate. Since it's off board I can see why it shouldn't be, but if someone else got scammed by the same person and I didn't give neg feedback I'd feel pretty rotten.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

There are bad apples in every bushel, unfortunately.


:(


Chris.....

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Speaking as a noob, it's somewhat disheartening to see you and the others who responded here, who I've seen participate faithfully in all kinds of trades, PIFs, MAWs, bombs, etc; get taken like this.
I've been amazed by the the thoughtfulness and generosity of the members of this forum. Case in point, my new baby thread. It's usually the proud dad's job to hand out some sticks. Apparently not on CA. I have several packages headed my way from B(S)oTL here. I'm keeping tabs, and I'll certainly return the favor as well as bomb some fellow noobs as finances (and my current lack of sleep :r) allow.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Sorry to hear of your loss Shawn (and the others who were taken for a ride). I was invited to this GB and stood back because things seemed a bit fishy with this cat. Not long after he received payments I got a text message from him saying he was passing my exit off the highway coming from a western state where he drove to purchase a new dog. So, my point is that he did in fact have the $ to refund everyone but chose not to.

While I wish it could happen - I don't think legal action would be wise especially considering the fact that nobody was planning on paying the taxes that would have been owed on the products being purchased. :2

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Assuming the GP was for embargoed cc, aside from what has already been mentioned, an illegal contract (e.g. agreement to purchase illegal goods) is unenforceable. Therefore, the agreement itself is likely null and void. I'm not saying that he couldn't be criminally liable for fraud or theft (I don't practice criminal law), but any action would likely open up a can of worms that would be detrimental to the community as a whole. Caveat Emptor (buyer beware)! Some people (even friends and family) just suck!

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I have a MOD question.

If Member A is taken advantage of on ANOTHER board by Member B and BOTH are members of THIS board, is it OK for Member A to post negative feedback on THIS board?

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Always been my understanding Joel that if it didn't happen here, don't leave feedback for it here.

I'm sure one of our hosts will correct me if I'm wrong

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Yep. That is the general practice.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Can you explain why? Makes zero sense to me. What difference does the board have it's the person that makes or breaks a deal.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I think it has to do with not bringing drama from one place to another.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I agree not in a thread. But I do see value and no harm putting it in the feedback system.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Sorry you don't agree or understand, Al. But that is just the way we have decided to conduct things here. The TOE have enough on our plate. Allowing what you propose would necessitate us being up on what goes on everywhere else. (Rhetorical questions: How many other boards would you have us monitor? What about private boards?) It would open up a huge can of worms and none of us have the time or inclination to do so.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

This is where I will end up replying, although I wanted to reply to the person that stated that there was a real case, crossing state lines, etc. I laughed out loud, I am sorry to say. Not to deride the person who said this, but in a general way, I was thinking, 'yup, it's easy to give advice to the "other person" who then has to act on his ironclad case involving illegal goods'. Haha, priceless. A person who rips a person on a coke deal knows there is only one threat. Revenge. Because they are not going to tell the cops they got ripped off in a coke deal. There is no legal recourse. This is why I do not trade. Some people will laugh about that statement, and you know who you are. But buy what you like, then get together with friends and smoke it. All this trading and piles of money and hurt feelings is eventually bad for everybody. In a metaphysical sort of way, anyway. But when you come out on the losing end, you really only have two recourses.
One is the old show up at the door. Two is to make sure that he can't operate in the dark on your board. You showed alot of restraint using option two. When I DO deal with people, I tell them that my good name is my guarantee. What good is the internet cigar community if I can't enjoy it with my head up?

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Can I join?

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

If a transaction at another site went bad, it would certainly make sense to leave negative trader feedback at THAT site.

When we first started Cigar Asylum, the 11 of us decided that everyone here would be able to start fresh. What happened at other boards, what happened 2 years ago, etc was pretty much null and void. Everyone here got a chance to start anew. If you screwed up here, then you screwed up.

As diverse as the cigar communities are on the internet, we are all in a very closely knit group. Its pretty rare that a member on this board is not known by someone on another board, whether you know it or not. Word travels very fast on the web. If its cigar related, it travels within the cigar community twice as fast. Chances are that Dans reputation is already on other boards as I type this.

Im not sure if I really answered your question Al, but I think you get the idea.

__________________________-

Now about getting folks on the "list"

I can only forewarn those that may or may not know the facts about "the list". I do this with help from a fellow members PM:

There was some discussion recently about having a few specific people be the "judges" about who gets on that list. Many of the people deserve to be on the list, but at the same time, the people here need to understand that once someone is on the list, they are never taken off the list, and the fact that they may complete the deal is never added.
The list originated from another site which has a very different character than here.
While many feel that certain folks should be on that list, be warned. Its like a bullet. Once fired, theres no turning back. Theres no oops. No negotiation will reverse it. It is written in virtual stone forever for all to see. Game over.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I can hear Tracey Morgan now, in drag on SNL on The View. "Yes, I AM a lawyer!"
Sorry, where was I? Oh yeah, this is the best advice in the thread, and all of you should re-read it. This is cut from the same cloth as why we do not make a huge stink when a vendor does something we do not like, we move on and hit the next name on the list. You NEVER want to ship cigars back, because then the curtain gets pulled back uncomfortably far for the old Wizard. Everytime you reach out for a little justice, that's when you get a little more light on your business than you want. That's like what the man said in goodfellas...we're like the cops for people who can't GO to the cops. YOU CAN'T go the the cops, so you have to do a little eating of the shi+.

NOW, that doesn't mean the Fox shouldn't get a few well-placed bombs to make up for his loss, I can already see that happening. Derh.
But like I said earlier, it's always easy to suggest some kind of official payback, but that just doesn't work in this situation. That's why it's nearly the perfect scam, if it is a scam. All he has to do is disappear.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Private boards are a myth, much talked and speculated about, but in the end, much like kaiser soze, they just wisps of smoke

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

:tpd:

I like revenge, a dish best served ice cold in a dark parking lot.

They have parking lots in Canada, don't they?

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

:tpd: but not for his loss, for his generousity.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Sounds like the guy took a bunch of $$$...man that sucks. Why would someone spend so much time on these forums making friends just to screw people for money (and even though it was a bunch it wasn't worth it). Karma is a *****..... :mad:

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Oh I definately understand. :tu

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

People are weird dude. I got ripped off for $4k LEGALLY! It was a 2 year ordeal and in the end the guy that got the cash is a miserable lying scumbag of a person. Life goes on. The money will come back, but things like Honor, loyalty and my name are NOT for sale and once gone hard to ever get them back. :2

Rob

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

This is a riddle, right? :)

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Why yes:D

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Wait, what?









:D

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

What's a parking lot??:r:r

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

They're called freeways in southern California. ;)

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Shawn, sorry to hear about you getting the bad end of that deal...

:r That they are... :D

Shawn, sorry to hear about you getting the bad end of that deal...

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

While I appreciate the thought that won't be necessary.

Thanks again to all those with kind words.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

To reiterate, as I am not sure it was grasped completely, it is absolutely NOT ok to post negative feedback here for a transaction on another board...period.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Tom, in regards to transactions that went bad that were actually conducted privately, not on any boards (ie via email) what is the mods position on TF for that?

For example, I was contacted by Dan via email regarding the sale of some cigars. Fortunately I declined, but had I not I would be in the same boat as Shawn and the other gents here (Tikihut patch aside).

Now, at the time, I was ONLY a member of CA, so that is the only place Dan new me from. Since this was our only common "hang out" would it have been appropriate for feedback to be left on CA?

Obviously, the point is now mute for Dan, but for future reference, clarification might be in helpful.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Hi Moe,

I would say if the transaction was initiated somehow through CA (PMs, e-mail through CA, etc), then it would be permissable. But I certainly don't think transactions initiated on another board, whether via PMs on that board, or other means, should constitute negative feedback here. Clear as mud? :)

In your case I would think TF would be permissable, because your transaction would have occured through CA to a major degree.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Gotcha :tu

I was referring to the first instance.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

If transactions are conducted via closed doors (ie: Private PM deal from here or email) I dont see why you cant leave TF on their profile.

Its just that if the transaction was conducted at another forum, leave the feedback at that forum.



edit: (or in others words.....what Tom said :))

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Great minds, Kelly? ;) :r

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

You type mo faster den me. :)

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Fastest two index fingers in the East. ;)

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

More facts:

1) Dan contacted me in Afghanistan about a GB for a patch back in November 08. I was leaving soon, but hoped to get the patches made by a local vendor in Camp Phoenix before I left. I set up the patch and had a prototype made, then ordered the batch.

2) The vendor was backlogged and couldn't get the patches made before I left country. I was unwilling to stick around in Afghanistan to wait, so I turned the process over to my Tiki Hut replacement, TFphoenix33.

3) TFphoenix33 waited for Dan to send a check so he could pick up the patches. Never came. Dan said he had some personal issues and was having trouble getting the check out.

4) I got involved again in February and April as a liason between Dan and TFphoenix33. No money came from Dan, TFphoenix33 was unwilling to front the money (smart man). As far as I know, the patches are still sitting at the embroiderers. Maybe they will still be there by the next time I get sent back to Afghanistan.

5) I am unaware of any refunds for patches, I know even I sent him money for the GB because the final patches were slightly different than the prototype and I wanted one.

6) I am also unaware that any of the troop supporters received anything from the failed GB. Please correct if so.

7) I feel lousy about the whole thing :( .

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I think we all do

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I find it ironic that the guy who gave me a hard time in a PM about calling out a member on a bad transaction screwed so many people.

I think that makes sense.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

Wasn't your undoing, Dan never sent the cheque, so no patches.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

No reason for you to feel lousy, you did everything right. :)

For the record, this is NOT the story Dan told a couple of Mods via PM...he laid all the blame on people in Afghanistan. And I obviously believe yours is the true story.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

I hear ya, and I would feel the same way, however I don't think any of us hold you responsible for the failed GB. I cant imagine why you wouldn't want to hang around Afghanistan for another 6 months though :r

I really dont care about the $12, what I'm phucken pissed about is that he would screw people over under the guise that it was for troop support. The members of the GB got screwed, the embroiderer got screwed, and the troops got screwed.

Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade
 

As usual, I have no meaningful comment to add, save to say I am saddened by this whole epic tale - sorry for those who were burned, sorry for the one who thought it was OK to burn others in what was his virtual backyard, and sorry for all the bad karma thus seeded here. The only thing that hurts worse than being taken is when you are taken by someone you considered a friend - you lose not only material possessions, but a piece of your trust and your heart as well.

:(