Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I'm in.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

IMO, a cigar is a cigar and yes all of the factors may change the taste, but there have been times that one out of a box will taste different from the rest correct?

That being said, I will go to the B&M to try a cigar and if I like it a lot I will order a box from the internet. If I don't like it enough for a box I may buy one at the B&M from time to time. If I didn't like it at all, I was only out one stick and I can try it again later when I forget what it tasted like.

For me it comes down to I cannot see paying that much more for a box at a B&M versus the same thing on the net.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Agreed with the first statement. This is why we do it and it is fun.

With regards to the second statement. First the local B&Ms add up to significantly more than the big guys. Second, There is thew fact that the big guys probably won't notice. third, there is the placebo effect for the internet buyer. " I got the same stuff cheaper". Forth, the local can actually leave you. CI and Famous etc. could not just stop selling Rocky, or Perdomo or La Aurora, there is no threat. a Local guy just tells his clients, they were dealing with me poorly or gave me bad stuff and out of loyalty to their local place many stop smoking the brand all together. The big guys are powerful, because of the volume to one place that they command, but they throw it around too and demand dirt cheap prices for those. When I started in business I wanted the big guys, the whales. But now I want a thousand little guys, that way no one customer leaving can hurt my business.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Agreed there are a boat load of variables and the testing does not have statistical significance. But it is still odd and telling that 100% notice a difference and always in favor of the local.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

If I were Pepin, Fuente, et al. I wouldn't want my name on an inferior stick. It wouldn't matter to me where the stick was destined, internet or B&M.

I have gotten some putrid and great sticks from B&M and online. These are handmade products that are subject to minor variations unit to unit. I understand variations in color are sorted together for box presentation purposes, so it's plausible there are big differences in wrapper color within a blend. As far as purposely putting lower quality tobacco in a certain batch, not buying it. Aren't torcedors issued their bales for the days rolling?

I would imagine that the most important thing to aim for within a blend/brand is consistency.

I guess it boils down to this: If you like cigars from your B&M buy them (I'm sure they appreciate it), If you like them from online sources, buy those (I'm sure they appreciate it as well.) Not much on the conspiracy theories, but that's just me. I may be wrong.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Legend, most of the things we are saying are purely spectulative, and we have no real proof. I think that internet retailers sell more, you think B&M's sell more, but neither of us have proof. Just because you said it over and over again doesn't mean it is fact so going back to that point over and over again doesn't prove anything at this point.

Don't you work at a B&M or are a member of a lounge in SoCal? This seems obviously blatant to everyone else that there is a complete bias. The whole purpose of saying, "Hey, let us see if B&M's taste better than internet" is greatly biased. Just because you don't tell them it's from the B&M and internet makes it a blind taste test. Just like your bad example of the placebo effect of buying sticks off the internet cheaper except it could actually be a real placebo effect since you are all sitting around actively trying to see that there is a difference.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I'm kinda wondering what would happen if he mixed things up a bit by giving one of the testers two B&M sticks or two Internet sticks...

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I have 2 cats and 1 dog.

MCS

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

And told them you were seeing of B&M and internet cigars were different? I'm almost certain many will say there is. :rolleyes:

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Perhaps you are experiencing a placebo effect because you seem quite convinced that the B&M's sticks are superior...:ss

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

:tpd:
I couldn't of said it better.
Too many variables. Enjoy cigars, whenever, however and from where ever you choose. Just enjoy them fellas. :ss

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

May not mean much coming from someone who hasnt done a lot of smoking but "cha ching"! Gator= spot on!:tpd:

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I am starting to get an itch!:bh

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I figure I buy from who I want, when I want period. After all, I'm the one who benefits or suffers which:2ever the case may be.
:2

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

The biggest difference I have seen first hand is with againg, B&M's dont move the stock of some of the more boutique brands that the online guys do. i.e. go into some place that sells Tatujue and check the box code, probably not new. Recently the shop I work at recieved a new box of VSG torpedos, compared to the rest of the VSG's already on the shelf they tasted totally different (due to lacking years of age) as such someone can come to the conclusion that a big interent site that moves thousands of boxes a month has cigars that dont taste the same as the local shop who moves maybe 10-20 boxes a month and mostly singles.

Just my perspective having watched stock sit on shelves only to be blown at a bottom shelf prices because it doesn't sell.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

About your dogs, did you buy one on the internet and the other from a local store?

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

agreed.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

And if so, do they taste different?

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Once again guys. No conspiracy, not vastly inferior. just noticeable difference.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Thank you for asking. The cats came from a local source and the dog came from a less local source. They are all nice.

MCS

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I licked all three and they taste like those sour gummi bears.

MCS

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, what part did you.............um.........nevermind. Thanks.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I would love to see the factual stats on the local B&Ms adding up to more than the "big guys". Also how the conclusion is reached that the big guys "probably won't notice getting a (not vastly) inferior product. And don't even get me started on how you could prove this "placebo effect" theory.

I again emphasize everything posted here is subjective and/or speculative, yet it is pontificated like as if it were factual.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Oh no, I've Agreed with everyone who's said it's subjective. and even stated I know neither side can be proved. just think it's interesting and would be fun to test amongst the inmates.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Absolutely, no harm in a little fun. :tu

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Let's not get all balled up here. This is an interesting discussion with all sides having there own opinion. That is what this type of medium is all about.

I tried searching the INTERNET to see if there was any information on cigar distribution and could not find anything definitive. The leading retailer is JR cigars and they sold about 10% of all cigars in the US. This of course includes all cigars which includes machine made cigars which sell more by far but cost less. Based on all the information I could find a good guess would be the INTERNET companies probably sell an equal amount of handmades as the B&Ms.

I typically try a few singles from a B&M first before purchasing a box. As far as quality goes, I would have to say I can't tell the difference. For the ones resting in my humi for > a month the singles taste the same as the boxes purchased on line.

I can say (as been stated before) the smokes indulged in at a local B&M with fellow BOLTs is always the best. Especially since I usually try something new that has been reccomended.

Anyway, an interesting discussion. Let's keep this civil. :)

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Agreed. Thanks for the input.

So who is willing to organize a test? I'll definately put some money into it. I know it will prove nothing but will be fun to do.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Legend,

Who are the biggest internet cigar shops? That's right, same guys who ALSO run B&Ms: Famous, CI, Holt's, JR, Corona, etc. There is absolutely no way they ALSO maintain different stocks as proposed by you in the original post (and meaning that cigar manufacturers maintain at least 2 different warehouses as well).

I know of no business, cigar or not, that is looking to increase operational costs instead of cutting them, and anyone believing some yahoo at some cigar factory somewhere wanting to mess with a turista's head just needs to smoke less or entirely cut it out (and I don't mean cigars).

I guess its time for me to cut down on my book purchases over the internet, the paper they are printed on must be inferior to the ones sold at a B&M. And that watch must be made of inferior steel as well... Internet bought means inferior, in short.

So far you said that CA reviews are bought via ad dollars with absolutely no proof provided, now you are saying that a good number of cigars smokers are buying inferior products from internet stores and manufacturers who KNOWINGLY sell inferior product. Wow...

Since you live near Temecula I am sure wine makers there say they make superior product to, say, Napa, to any tourist that makes a stop at a local tasting room. Must also be true since a winery tasting room employee says it.

Don't believe everything you think.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Awesome. I'll check my thoughts with you in the future. Since you know which of my thoughts are ridiculous and which aren't. I certainly can't trust myself. And you seem very willing to help.

Ok. I'm just funning with you. Worry not. I'm not offended by your post. Just figured I'd demonstrate the absurdity of your statements. While you believe I may need to not believe everything I think. Its painfully obvious you shouldn't post everything you think. Truly riddick to summarily dismiss anothers thoughts as wrong when you have no proof. Particularly after he has admitted that his thoughts are just opinions that can't be proven. Just like yours. But of course your opinions are facts.

Truly no sweat riddick. Not offended. Just some advice.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I thought it was for the largest part, John. :)

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I have yet to taste Cali wine that I liked :)

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Absolutely, just be nice to keep it that way.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

That wouldn't be a placebo effect, it would be bias, and it is unclear to me what direction the bias would go.

Normally I'm all for cigar testing on boards, but this, to me, is like designing an experiment to show that the earth is round.

Look at his argument again. Most internet shops are expansions from B&Ms. Based on your thesis, you are suggesting that J&R sells different CAO Brazilias online than they do in their NC shop. I dismiss that out of hand because it doesn't pass the smell test, let alone my personal experience.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

If you look at the original post I acknowledged that the big internet guys were themselves b&m and that their local store would be considered part of the internet store for the purpose of this discussion.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

*sigh* I hang out here too much. My first thought after reading this was, "JR has a CC shop?" :r

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Emphasis placed by me.

So once a B&M starts selling online, they start getting the second rate cigars? Come on ... your thesis is ridiculous. The cost alone of keeping 2 separate inventories (the good cigars and the bad cigars) would preclude this. Six months makes a huge difference in taste of many cigars and is most likely the source of your preference. This is simpler and more logical than two inventories from what ... all vendors? All of them are conspiring and having two versions of all their cigars? Now that just doesn't pass the laugh test, does it?

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

You are looking at it much harsher than I intended. I would say that once a guy gets big enough to demand lower prices the makers then will then know when they are making these large batches for them and may not always use the best. Let QA drop a little. Definately not 2nd rate. Just noticeable.

Is aging a possible explination as well? Sure. I'll concede that. Is it the only explination and does it explain everything? No!

To you it seems ridiculous because you're looking at it as a much more severe difference than I mean. And much more sinister. I'm thinking simple business decisions that are easy. No separate stock. These big guys order direct from the factory and the factory knows who their product is being made for.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I'd be willing to participate, but as I said above, I think you'd have to give some participants 2 B&M sticks or 2 Internet retailer sticks to make it more of a blind study. If everyone knows they have one of each, then they might "manufacture" differences that aren't really there.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Well if the best product went to the best clients (assuming these are B&M), how would they handle that at the factory? By rollers? By changing the cigar formulation?

Too much work and cost to segregate that way.

It just doesn't make sense that a manufacturer would put out anything that would be considered at all inferior in their regular line. That is why seconds abound. I've had seconds that smoked and looked very good. And if CI or any of the big guys found that they were getting inferior cigars because of who they are or their negotiated prices, how long do you think that would last?

DPG gets a huge order from CI for blue labels. You think they change the formulation or rolling to fulfill the order? You think DPG or any other retailer would risk the reputation of their cigars to save a few bucks? I just don't see it, not even a maybe.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I could go through how simple it seems to me. But ice already explained parts of it and you don't even see a maybe. So I'll leave it at that and not try to convince you. I mean you're not even willing to entertain the possibility. I'm wasting my time. It becomes an arguement and not a discussion. Not here to argue.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

The experiment would actually be pretty simple, just a basic double-blind study. Take for example 5 testers testing one vitola. A person independent from the testers would buy 2 boxes with roughly the same date stamps, 1 from a B&M and 1 from an online vendor, label them box A and B and give them to a second independent person (the distributor) without letting them know which is which. That second person would then remove the bands and replace them with blanks labeled to match the boxes they've come out and age them for a predetermined length of time in a known constant environment. Each of the testers would receive 10 cigars, 5 from each box, which they would have to smoke (preferably alternating equally between the 2 stocks) and record their impressions of both the smoke and their mood at the time. Once all 10 cigars have been smoked the tester reports their results back to the distributor. Only once all 5 testers have reported back and the distributor has tabulated which, if either, box was preferred does the first person reveal which was the internet box and which was the B&M.

At the end of all that production you'll almost guaranteed to find that the results are the same for each and the perception of a "better" cigar from a B&M/lounge is purely due to the bias induced by the environment and the fact that we are programed to think a more expensive product = better product.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I have been watching this from afar up to now.

Inherently I disagree which is my opinion not a statement of fact but it really makes no sense whatsoever.

That is like saying if I buy my Windex at the local grocer on the corner that I am going to get a superior product than if I ordered it from Costco online that given that the manufacturer knows it is for Costco they will use a slightly inferior and cheaper formula and charge costco less so they can sell it at a lesser price.

It sounds a little absurd when we are talking about window cleaner, yet I believe this is the exact same argument that has been applied.

I cannot see it happening, I see no empirical evidence that it is, and I cannot imagine retailers (online) and consumers tolerating it. In fact I would bet that somewhere in the annals of Fair Trade and Market Laws it is illegal to represent them as the same product if they are in fact not.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Maybe you should try one to begin with :D

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Legend,

Usually I am not a supporter of legal action, but "theories" like these simply rub me wrong as they should any other business owner, IMO.

Like I said already, you are 2 for 2 so far, some may say you simply repeat things heard elsewhere, some will say it is clearly libel. Actually, any attorney will say it is libel and will easily prove it in court.

Take a look here:
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article...nymous-critics

There are plenty of other examples. Sitting at a keyboard somewhere doesn't give anyone license to mess with someone's business just because he had a "deep thought".

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

http://www.5min.com/Video/Young-Vin-...eakdance-11490


:D

Hope the Koehler folks don't come a knocking at my door. :ss

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition, is it not?

In any case, I do a lot of sensory testing for my job. I realize that you need a lot of samples to have validity in your conclusions. I also realize that there are other possible explanations for the differences that you have observed. I do not doubt at all that you have seen clear preferences for cigars purchased at your B&M compared to online. Why would I? You come here looking for an explanation, which is cool. But you were given the explanation. Age of cigars and possibly humidity of storage.

I will, however, contribute money and time to the effort to design and run the experiment to test your hypothesis; as long as you are willing to accept the results of the experiment, as I am. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong ... I am married after all :r.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I propose this. Take the same stick and give people 4 of the same stick. However they will get them in any combination...could be 2 from online and 2 from B&M, one and three, or 4 from one source and have them rate them and say which they think is which. I can almost guarantee you there will be no trend in either direction.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I don't know how to run the statistics on that type of experimental design. Anybody???

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Can't see any control group there and don't see much experimental design.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

The Dos Equis in a Bottle I get at the bar tastes far superior than the Dos Equis in a bottle that I buy from the liquor store.....:r

Sure it does....